Clean dishes vs. reduced water pollution
By Judy Lowe | 03.30.09
If you had a choice between eating off dirty dishes or helping protect area waterways, which would you choose? In Spokane, Wash., where a state ban on phosphates in dishwasher detergent is being phased in, some residents are deciding in favor of squeaky-clean plates and glasses.
It turns out that phosphate-free dishwasher detergent — mandated by Washington State lawmakers for 2010 and beyond, and also coming to Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, Illinois, Massachusetts, and New York — doesn’t do a great job at cleaning dishes. Or, at least, the ones currently on the market don’t.
So, complaining of greasy plates and pans with bits of food still stuck to them, a number of Spokanites are heading for Idaho (about 20 miles away) to smuggle home detergent that will do a better job.
The ban — which Congress is considering making national — is to protect rivers and lakes, where phosphates contribute to the growth of algae, which depletes oxygen needed by fish.
If you thought that phosphates had been banned from detergents for a long time, you’re only partially right. In 1993, they were banned from laundry detergents, but not from dishwasher detergents.
Consumers weren’t all that fond of those early phosphate-free detergents either, and I recall that some people in early-adoption areas also went elsewhere to buy regular Tide and Cheer. But eventually, laundry detergents did get increased cleaning power. Or, at least, the complaints stopped.
Manufacturers of dishwasher detergents say they’re working on improving their products and had asked that the new laws take effect in July 2010.
But legislators didn’t listen.
Part of the environmental issue with starting before the present ecofriendly detergents are up to the job is that residents who are unhappy wih them tend to compensate in not-so-green ways — running the dishwasher on the long pots and pans cycle (which also heats up the water more) or driving to Idaho.
You might also wonder if an early unhappy experience with detergents containing .05 percent phosphate will make those residents slow to try improved products when they become available.
As you might expect, practically everyone has an opinion on this.
On Softpedia, Sci Pry opines that “when people [who are still using phosphate detergents] find that there are less and less fish in stores, they should know that they only have themselves to blame, and no one else. ”
In Washington State, Sound Politics says that the environmental group that was the main player in getting the dishwasher detergent ban enacted is encouraging residents to try various brands to find one that works, but hasn’t itself been able to find one.
Patrick Edaburn on The Moderate Voice says: “Interestingly phosphates were banned from laundry soap since 1993 and as far as I can tell my clothes still get reasonably clean. It looks like in this case however they need a little more time to perfect the formula for a low or non phosphate detergent before the law is expanded nationally.”
Ethel C. Fenig on American Thinker notes: “Folks in Spokane County in Washington state are singing along with Kermit the Frog ‘It’s not easy being green.’ ”
Words of wisdom from “Sesame Street,” no matter which side you take on this issue.
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2. John | 03.30.09
This is nonsense. Consumer reports found that it is the enzyme content and not the phosphates that determine the effectiveness of the dishwasher detergent.
http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4145681.html
4. Michael | 03.31.09
The irony for Vermont (one of the states listed), is while things like Phosphate and mercury are abhorred, little concern is given to the vast water way pollution caused by dairy farmers spreading fresh cow manure on fields or all the homes heated by wood stoves. An even worse trend is the now popular year round use of wood fired water boilers who’s smoke stacks rival the air pollution drifting in from the midwest.
5. Heidi Hesse | 03.31.09
That’s funny Washington! I’ve been using phosphate free dish detergent for years. And I have no trouble cleaning my dishes. Seems like a pretty small and reasonable change to make for clean water.
6. MJ | 03.31.09
What ever happened to handwashing your dishes? People are just too hooked on technology and machines (and I work in Information Technology).
7. Jon Snyder | 03.31.09
Why didn’t you publish my comment? I don’t appreciate your blog taking a pot shot at my city.
8. Judy Lowe | 03.31.09
Jon,
I’m so glad you left another comment. I deleted your first one by accident with a mountain of spam — and have been hoping you’d return so I could ask you to comment again. We certainly weren’t taking a potshot at Spokane, however. A great city. We were commenting on an Associated Press article that reported some residents were unhappy with the mandated changes in dishwasher detergent, which seemed to be confirmed by comments from several people. Obviously, different residents are going to feel — and act — differently. Do give us your view again. I promise not to goof it up this time!
9. Jon Snyder | 03.31.09
Judy,
Thanks for the response! I just wanted to make the following observations to the AP story as someone who lives in Spokane, WA: 1) Many people in Spokane worked VERY hard in support of the phosphates ban, 2) The vast majority of folks in Spokane County DO NOT go to Idaho for detergent, and 3) my family, and just about everybody we know has been using non-phosphate detergent since before the ban. It works great. I’m not sure why people think they need phosphate detergent, but most people in Spokane think the health of the Spokane River is more important!
11. Rene | 04.21.09
Thank you for your comment Jon! We are Spokane residents too and our Spokane River is our most beautiful resource. It’s what draws people to Spokane and it needs to be nurtured. We’ve been using green detergent before the ban too without problems. We scrap the food off our plates and give a quick rinse before putting in the washer. The dishwasher is not a garbage disposal. We also hand wash our nice wine glasses- always have. I do know quite a few people who are crossing the border, but I don’t think they give “green” a second thought ever anyway.
12. Ellen Powell | 05.04.09
The question is not whether “green, ” phosphate-free dishwasher detergents work or not. It is in what WATER do they work. Phosphates soften the water and ruin the environment. “Green” automatic dishwasher detergents work really well in most places in the USA, and this is reflected by repeat sales. But they don’t work well in all places - most brands are challenged to one degree or another by hard water. Effectiveness can actually vary house to house. Why were conventional manufacturers of automatic dishwasher detergents given an exemption when phosphates were banned in every other detergent? Simple answer. Because so far, none of the nation’s best formulating chemists has been able to come up with a phosphate-free auto dish detergent that performs perfectly in all water conditions. (Yes, I work in the industry.) The exact combo of conditions inside your automatic dishwasher poses technical challenges that aren’t found when doing laundry or dishes in your sink. For those consumers who are having a hard time getting phosphate-free auto dish detergent to work: keep trying different “green” brands, sometimes one brand will work in your area and another won’t, then if you go one watershed over - or even one house over - the reverse is true. Contact the manufacturers of the “green” brands and ask them if they have any tips for you. Ask your neighbors what works for them. Please quit yelling about how they are lousy, or great, and stop attacking each other with “it works for me, what’s your problem?” It depends on the water in your particular situation. (This does not apply to other “green” products like laundry and liquid dish detergents for washing dishes in the sink. They are fine. Some work better than others but they’re affected no more severely by hard water conditions than mainstream products are.)
13. Wood | 05.06.09
If you want to have dirty dishes, be my guest and leave me out of it. The environmentalists aren’t happy unless everyone is miserable along with them, that’s why they legislate their pretensions over everybody. I have a house guest right now that bought this looney version of dishwasher soap. Unaware that she was using the “non enviro-raping” stuff, I wondered why whenever she did the dishes the glasses all were as cloudy as a San Francisco fog, and the plates weren’t anywhere near clean. After doubling up on the Jet Dry, no use. I saw the web story on this Spokane issue and a lightbulb went off in my head. So sure enough, the culprit was the phosphorous free dish soap. Proof of the failure of this product.
14. Dee | 05.31.09
I’m from Spokane and don’t mind making the change for the environment, but I don’t get as good results with the phosphate free soap. I’ve finally found one that works pretty well. I want to help the environment, but alot of these comments make it sound like people who think phosphate free detergent doesn’t work are just being earth-hating jerks. Maybe it would be more fruitful to give suggestions on how to make it work better than to assume frustrated people are just careless consumers. Thanks Ellen for giving some good ideas!
15. Mark | 07.27.09
I had recently read where Walmart Great Value dish detergent was almost as good as Cascade and since Cascade is the only dish detergent that I can use that will get my dishes clean, I decided to try it. It’s much cheaper. I had no clue Walmart reformulated it to be phosphate free. I didn’t notice it until I got home. I was thinking this was going to be a waste of money. Talk about shocked! This stuff works! I couldn’t believe it! My very first phosphate free *accidental* detergent experience was good. Oh, and I have hard water too. One thing I notice is that I have to use more. The Cascade I filled both cups half way, but this I have to fill both cups completely full for equal results. But it was 2 dollars and something vs Cascade Complete at almost 9 dollars for the same size box. Not sure this stuff will work for everyone, but it works great for me. I also read when using an enzyme based detergent to scrape your dishes but DO NOT rinse them which is exactly what I have always done. I’ve never pre-rinsed, just scraped. Give it a try, it’s cheap so no great loss if it doesn’t work.
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1. Alan | 03.30.09
Making change for the betterment of our planet is good.
Laws of unintended consequences, even better.
Reminds me of the mental midgets (in Cali?) that want to outlaw incandescent bulbs. Great, I can’t find a single brand of small (candleabra) base bulbs that put out anywhere near full light when turned on, they all seem to take a few minutes.
So I either risk tripping when entering my dark home, or standing around waiting for lights to warm up. Or I put in incandescent bulbs, which give me the light I need right away. That specific set of lights is only on about 5 minutes a day, so its really hard for me to believe that using incandescents is somehow raping the environment.