A 100-ton piece of the Large Hadron Collider is lowered into the cave beneath Meyrin, Switzerland. (Martial Trezzini/Keystone/AP/FILE)
Could the Large Hadron Collider destroy Earth?
By Chris Gaylord | 07.01.08
Now that the European Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is completed and ready to fire up in August, a slew of articles have popped up quoting doomsayers. An AP article from this weekend was the most recent example of critics warning that the 17-mile, $5.8 billion supercollider – which will slam protons together in an attempt to learn more about the building blocks of the universe – will inadvertently create a black hole that will gobble up the Earth.
So, will the most ambitious science project in human history end human history? No.
I should say “no, according to scientists working on the LHC.” But the evidence points to a resounding “no.”
A study released last month disassembled the arguments against powering up the collider. The report found “no basis for concerns that [small] black holes from the LHC could pose a risk to Earth on timescales shorter than the Earth’s natural lifetime.” In other words: Yes, it could happen, but chances are the sun will burn out before this collider can have an Earth-ending mishap.
Their reasoning? Slashdot puts it best: “Everything that will be created at the LHC is already being created by cosmic rays. If a black hole created by the LHC is interactive enough to destroy the world within the lifetime of the sun, similar black holes are already being created by cosmic rays.”
If such black holes were naturally flinging around in the universe, they would bump up against “dense cosmic objects,” such as neutron stars, and over time the black holes would swallow the star. But, from looking through telescopes we know that there are plenty of old neutron stars around. So, if it’s safe for them, it’s also safe for us. “Any black hole that could be created at the LHC, even if it is stable, would have no effect on the earth on any meaningful timescale,” Slashdot says.
This conclusion is backed by the European agency that runs the LHC, a panel of independent scientists, the US Department of Energy, the US National Science Foundation, and science star Stephen Hawking – who argues that even if black holes developed, “they would instantly evaporate.”
That’s good enough for me.
<< Horizon highlights – 6.27.08 | MainComments
2. JTankers | 07.01.08
“That’s good enough for me.”
Perhaps you are convinced too easily!
“they would bump up against “dense cosmic objects,” such as neutron stars”
CERN’s SPC Committee “A powerful argument applicable also to higher energies is formulated making reference to observed neutron stars, but this argument relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years.”
“even if black holes developed, “they would instantly evaporate.”
* Dr. Adam D. Helfer: Do black holes radiate? “no compelling theoretical case for or against radiation by black holes”
* Dr. William G. Unruh and Prof. Ralf Schützhold: On the Universality of the Hawking Effect “Therefore, whether real black holes emit Hawking radiation or not remains an open question”
* Prof. V.A. Belinski: On the existence of quantum evaporation of a black hole “the effect [Hawking Radiation] does not exist.”
The counter arguments are good enough for me to be very concerned.
LHCFacts.org
3. Jacob A. | 07.02.08
End of the world coming pretty soon. Go read the book of Revelations in the bible. It prophesizes all of this. Im freaking out.
4. jonny | 07.02.08
Could the Large Hadron Collider destory Earth?
i think you meant destroy but destory works for me.it would get rid of harry potter books for one
5. homeBiscuitsAndGravy | 07.02.08
Jacob A., you religious zealots always give me a bad case of gas…
6. Zeke | 07.02.08
Revelations prophesizes that humans will make a big machine that creates a black hole that swallows Earth? Wow. I must have skimmed over that part. I’ll go prepare for it though… I’ll bottle some water, get some canned food, go find the nearest unoccupied cave, and pray to Jesus to save my soul. That’ll fool that pesky old black hole. Is there room in your cave, Jake?
7. W | 07.02.08
CERN judging their own LHC is safe is like a drunk deciding he’s all right to drive… with 6,700,000,000 passengers.
Who cares about a Higgs Boson particle or some quark gluon goop except a handful of frustrated geeks who have run out of ideas and have to experiment with forces they don’t even understand. These freaking physicists waste money and energy time and time again building atom smasher after atom smasher and end up with more questions, not answers. Now they’ve built one so powerful they say themselves it will create mini black holes at the rate of one per second! Which would change your life more; knowing they found some particle or getting crushed and sucked into a black hole along with everyone and every thing you ever cared about?
That sound like a good risk vs. benefit to you?!? Just because you can’t wrap your mind around it does not mean it can’t happen.
See for yourself;
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
http://www.LHCDefense.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
http://www.SaneScience.org/
Popular Mechanics - “World’s Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock ‘God Particle’” - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html“
8. Ian | 07.02.08
This is a good risk vs. benefit because there is no risk. Certainly, we may be in for some astounding discoveries, but if it would be possible to destroy the Earth with the LHC, it would have happened already in the upper atmosphere. The universe is far more powerful than anything we are able to create. While there are certainly questions as to our understanding of the laws of physics, we do know that if it is even possible to create a black hole, it will dissipate using the same theories. If we were to be so cautious that we did not use the LHC, you should also not get out of bed, or have sheets, or touch anything, because there is a greater chance of you dying from some sort of freak accident involving a speck of dust than there is of the LHC destroying the world. This is a classic case of people misunderstanding statistical probabilities.
And for those of you who think the destruction of the world is written into the Bible, don’t try to stop it because it is already written down and therefore must happen. Just enjoy the last few days you have.
10. Lisa | 07.02.08
If I actually believed there was a risk of the LHC creating a black hole to gobble up the earth, I’d buy a ticket to Geneva for a front row seat! The nut jobs always hear the sky is falling. What do I hear? Nothing but the rain.
11. Walt | 07.02.08
Zealots Playing God! - ‘The World is not Enough’
Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed ‘Higgs Boson’(aka ‘God’) Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments to try to solve theoretical problems when urgent real problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world’s most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing clouds of Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: “There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,…” This stunning admission is because they truly don’t know what’s going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don’t understand to obtain results they can’t comprehend. If you think like most people do that ‘They must know what they’re doing.’ you could not be more wrong. Some people think the same thing about medical Dr.s but consider this by way of comparison and example from JAMA: “A recent Institute of Medicine report quoted rates estimating that medical errors kill between 44,000 and 98,000 people a year in US hospitals.” The second part of the quote reads “…but what’s for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,…” A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads “as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe.” These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn’t a particle experimentalist physicist alive who wouldn’t gladly trade his life to glimpse the “God particle”, and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from National Geographic exactly sums this “science” up: “That’s the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out.”
For more information visit;
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
Popular Mechanics - “World’s Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock ‘God Particle’” - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html“
13. JTankers | 07.02.08
“i think you meant destroy but destory works for me.it would get rid of harry potter books for one”
LOL!
14. JTankers | 07.02.08
Ian writes “it would have happened already in the upper atmosphere”
Actually the fallacy of that argument was acknowledged in 2007, though some physicists have still quoted that argument as a safety factor even in 2008.
Recognition that that argument, along with several credible papers questioning the theory that that micro black holes would evaporate, was what prompted the new 2008 LSAG safety study.
If rare very high energy cosmic rays striking the upper atmosphere can create stable, initially neutral micro black holes, they would all pass through Earth at nearly the speed of light.
However if the LHC can create stable micro black holes at velocities too slow to escape Earth’s gravity, Dr. Otto Rossler calculates that the micro black holes could capture charged particles such as electrons, become charged themselves and then grow quickly.
A good balance overview of the issues is available on Wikipedia at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_the_Large_Hadron_Collider
15. JTankers | 07.02.08
fyi (I believe that Dr. Rossler’s theory is that the micro black hole would need to capture an electron in “orbit” outside of the event horizon to become charged, and to allow the micro black hole to become fast growing and therefore dangerous)
16. Ian B | 07.03.08
It could happen yes. But even for a voracious black hole capable of gobbling up an entire galaxy. It would choke on trying to shallow France and the inflated ego of its inhabitants
17. Shane | 07.03.08
I find it amusing that all those arguing how safe the LHC is, base their arguments on “theories”. I do find some solace that these theories were derived by some of the greatest minds around today (Hawkings), but can’t hang my hat on those theories like the rest of you. Our understanding of black holes is childish at best. We are dealing with a machine so powerful, even the most brilliant physicists of our time do not know what the outcome will be. That causes me to question the validity of their arguments on the safety of the LHC, let alone the fact that these safety reports were authored, or co-authored by CERNS own staff. Even with those concerns (I’m a scientist at heart), I say bring it on. The results will almost undoubtedly change our world in one way or another. However, one miscalculation will either bring about the greatest discovery man has ever made, or it will kill us all….man it’s like playing roulette and betting every penny you have on black. Spin the wheel boys, spin the wheel.
18. Warren Scott Fentress | 07.03.08
The same fear was in the minds of ‘Oppy’ & Einstein when they built the first A-Bomb (the atmosphere would catch fire..). There was a great SciFi book called “The Z Effect’ which basically had the same premise as the LHC - re-booting the universe!
God may not ‘play dice with the universe’ - but it does shoot pool (hence, the Yucatan asteroid that killed the poor dinos) - and since the Mayan calendar ends in 2012, we should look at the LHC collider schedule and see what’s in the queue for then.
Considering the complete and utter nincompoops who make policy and run the planet (i.e., the power-hungry, greedy and selfish bastards like George Bush, Sheik Yourbooty and the Bildenbergers), we should all not fear a re-boot. A fresh start can’t be bad (and besides, life is fatal anyway). Happy nuking!
19. Steve Watson | 07.03.08
I found out about this silly experiment last year; it fills me with fear. Not for me personally, but my children. I was amazed that there never seems to be any real date for when this really expensive doomsday device is to be activated. I need to know, so that I can make sure I am home; with my family.
I work with an awful lot of people who are supposedly far, far more intelligent than I. I am also partially responsible for some saftey issues that arise when working with things that can kill lots of people, should things go awry.So I know without any reservation that many scientists are really quite thick when it comes to practical matters. An insane look of near religious ectasy appears on their faces when they start elucidating about the bits of science that they love so much; scary.
Given free rein, without the likes of practical ‘morons’ like myself, I have no doubt that these nilistic creatures would blow everyone up around them. Unfortunately, the clever folk at the lhc do not seem to have anyone reining them in. And do not think for a minute that the main reason for spending an amount of money, that could potentially make the world a better place, if used wisely (like thats ever going to happen), is for anything other than creating the next generation of super weapons to threaten, and bring into line, naughty nations.
The people that sanction this level of funding are not that interested in helping socially inept buffoons to stare at the face of God; they just want to be able to blow things up, even more than they can already.
Of course the ‘Doughnut of Doom’ may simply not work; scientists not only do not care if they destroy the world: they will also lie to get the next level of funding.
Regardless, I am going to be at home when they start it up. And if it does destroy the world, I hope it does not make the children scream for to long, or to loudly.
20. Brett Henebery | 07.03.08
That cosmic rays travel too fast to be captured by earth’s gravity is correct, however the collisions that will occur at CERN smash head-on (like a car crash, if you like), and CAN be captured by earth’s gravity, therefore any theoretical black hole would not evaporate. Hawking radiation has not been proven, and although neither have black holes, it is nonetheless too great a risk to pass off as ‘harmless’ or ’safe’. CERN themselves have stated that they have ‘no idea’ what will happen as the LHC reaches maximum performance, between 2009 and 2012. So how can a flawed safety report be taken as proof that the LHC is even close to safe?
21. Judeau | 07.04.08
It would be sort of like in Half-Life with the Resonance Cascade Scenario!!! OMG I hope Freeman saves us all…
Just joking, this really is no laughing matter. We stand at the threshold of a new era of scientific understanding. I however cynically believe nothing will save us from the present and coming political/sovereign aggressions & wars, the M-I-C, and the mind numbing, non-substantive tv and print media systems that keep people happy and idle.
22. shem | 07.04.08
FAce it, they got UFO’s already and you think they are blind about what there doing…
“There using a technology & scientific base not known to mainstream science>”
23. Richard Lamanna, DDS | 07.04.08
I just figured it out. The universe creates black holes by creating sentient biengs, intelligent enough to discover and design technology enabling them spawn a black hole. And POOF, there arises the black hole which gobbles up the associated solar system. I postulate therefore that every black hole which exists in the universe was created by a group of nuclear physicists.
24. Kara | 07.04.08
“As long as the Dolphins are around, we are probably okay.”
Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy fan are we?
26. Ranger Rick | 07.04.08
Finally, there is real hope! Hope that the madness that humanity calls “civilization” will end at last!
27. Fred Scogins | 07.04.08
When are they going to switch on-August,still they have put it off before so we might have a bit longer to live.
Seriously though with the UK oil drying up soon and very little manufacturing
industry we are left with people just passing around bits of paper between themselves, so let us hope they do find another source of energy or we will all end up in a 4th world country
28. romeo | 07.05.08
This does not have to happen! CERN should not be turned ON, ever. Encase it in concrete as a testimony to human curiosity, trials, tribulations and errors, cought in time to correct. So we loose a few billion dollars. Still much better than loosing the Earth. Earth, our nurturing mother, is beyond any $ or Euro value.
29. romeo | 07.05.08
Denying the mini black holes creation used to be the CERN’s and supporters’ tactic. This is no longer the case. At CERN at least, they are now talking about the benefits of studying their MBHs, as if they were tamed monkeys. Their safety explanations are getting more bizarre with time. Now, they compare this Earth experiment to white dwarfs and neutron stars, and on other sites to mosquitoes. Read the interview with one of the authors of CERN’s latest safety report: cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/02/1180976.aspx?CommentPosted=true#commentmessage , or this again: cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/29199. There is censorship of well reasoned, opposing voices on many science sites, msnbc being one of them. I am all for science, it is fascinating and I love it, but it has to serve mankind (ladieskind included), be safe and responsible, that is all. Rolling a dice with human existence at stake and censorship are neither of those.
30. Roger Munns | 07.05.08
My reasoning is that if the earth / galaxy /universe (does that include God?) is doomed then it’s doomed anyway, regardless of the LHC.
ps. As we go through the black hole boundary is ther esomeone standing there taking notes as to what we would like when we get through the wormhole?
31. Mark Stouffer | 07.06.08
Well I was once concerned about Black Holes, or actually, creating a new Big Bang. But then I found out that cosmic rays are bombarding our upper atmosphere (and the Moon) with particles many thousands of times more powerful. Also, any black hole that was created would have a mass of about a bazzillionth of a gram and therefore would exert about a bazzillionth of a gram of gravity. That kind of suction would take a while to consume the Earth I think.
32. Jeff | 07.07.08
to Richard Lamanna - OMG! I hadn’t thought of that! I think you might have hit the nail on the head. That’s why we can’t find signals from other civilizations. It’s because the ’smart’ ones have crushed the crap out of themselves with Black Hole technology.
and Chaz - with ‘Final Countdown’ lyrics including ‘we’re leaving for Venus and maybe they’ve seen us’ and ‘with so many light years to go’, I don’t think Europe did a lot of homework on the subject.
Maybe they already did the experiment and time is now running backwards and we don’t even know it.
34. Mike | 07.07.08
If the believers are so sure of ‘their’ outcome, what’s the point in complaining?
35. zomg! | 07.07.08
Some of the comments here are proof that too much religion stops a thinking mind. Faith is one thing, but blind faith without question is insane. Of course it works just fine for extremist muslims.
36. Zarathustra | 07.07.08
Im more inclined to trust the men and women who have a library of phd s and are ACTUALLY QUALIFIED TO INTERPRET THE DANGERS of this experiment.
to mikw i ask: If god knew what would happen to the world why did he build it?
37. Blood Scorpion | 07.07.08
The book of revelations was supposed to take place in fifty years after jesus death. 666 is the numerological representation of NERO. and Dinosaurs DID exist.
and to polish this off i say What was god doing all those years before judiasm existed?
Ever heard of SUMERIA?
39. Zarathustra | 07.07.08
The moderators here seem to be a bit averse to free and open debate. this is why the pious cant be taken seriously. because when they start to loose an argument they stick their head in the sand or start a crusade.
40. True Christian Scientist | 07.07.08
In fact, the LHC is an instrument born of God’s Eternal Love for us. Most people don’t even realize that as matter approaches the event horizon of a black hole, relativistic effects dictate that time itself will slow down and stop. The LHC is clearly God’s way of bringing us all to final peace in an eternal and blissful afterlife. God Bless the LHC, for through it shines the light of salvation!
42. James | 07.07.08
The idiots in this blog trying to explain advanced physics are like two year olds trying to explain markov chains.
It won’t destroy the world. Even if it did, how bad could it be? You deserve it anyway.
You should be happy about this prospect. I thought you’d be excited to see your “maker”!
43. Fred Scogins | 07.07.08
I have just re-read Alexander Pope’s The Dunciad lines 627 to 656 which begins-
In vain in vain the all composing hour, after reading it I think maybe he knew something we dont know,it would also be good for other people to submit poems they think are apt.
I also must agree with Jeff 32 when he says-Maybe they have already done the experiment and time is now running backwards and we dont even know it.
44. Lou | 07.07.08
If it ends the world, then it’s the end times, yes? Shouldn’t you all be happy about that, because then the rapture would be right around the corner, yes?
Seriously, think about your claims. Or are you just a tad worried that getting swallowed by a black hold doesn’t exactly match prophecy and you’re all doomed to nonexistence in a godless universe?
45. Read_The_Book_Not_The_Cliff_Notes | 07.07.08
For the last time….If you can’t comment intelligently because you do not understand the science, please do not offer an opinion based on your philosophical preferences.
46. Kevin | 07.08.08
Well, you crazy zealots are all totally wrong, but it doesn’t matter. The machine is gonna be turned on.
So, now I’m torn. Do I hope that nothing happens, so I can rub it in your collective faces, or do I hope that the Earth is destroyed so we don’t have to listen to you anymore?
Seriously, you people couldn’t understand the principles involved in the function of this machine on your best day. Keep your extremism and fear mongering constrained to subjects the wikipedia article on which you can at least read cogently.
47. Jesus Friendly | 07.08.08
I prayed to Jesus and he said it is O.K. God gave us the rainbow as proof that he would never destroy the world again. I’m sure if you pray on this he will lay the same message on your heart.
48. Matt | 07.08.08
If we reformat of the universe we shouldn’t install republicans and jesus this time.
49. Tinfoil armor | 07.08.08
Also, if the world really is sucked into a black hole, everyone will die, it’s not like you would ever know you missed anything as the particles in your body are crushed by the immense gravity.
50. Beano the Clown | 07.08.08
Ojojoj….. jäklar vad mycket skumma teorier de kommer upp med nu för tiden. And to all of them that thinks that a “Theory” is something weak. Think again, a theory is just a step under proof. It is hypothesis that is truly weak.
Everyone will die in the end, don´t worry about this though, we won’t know it anyway
51. Greg | 07.08.08
“”"The idiots in this blog trying to explain advanced physics are like two year olds trying to explain markov chains.
It won’t destroy the world. Even if it did, how bad could it be? You deserve it anyway.
You should be happy about this prospect. I thought you’d be excited to see your “maker”!”"”
+1
It also pains me to see people become completely indignant at the prospect of basing science on “theories” (with a misguided understanding of theories, by the way), while they base their whole lives on fiction. Human idiocy abounds. Go start a crusade.
52. Someone with common sense | 07.08.08
Its a dangerous world, if you don’t want to take risks, go back to bed.
Don’t chalk it up to religion.
You’re a small person.
53. Mike | 07.08.08
Taking a risk implies that you have a choice in the matter. These people have already made the decision for you.
Interesting to see all the people chomping at the bit for this experiment to take place. If you happened upon this issue in The New York Times, you might take a minute to consider the audacity of putting the world at risk when they really don’t know what will happen (yes, pull your head out. It’s not just the CSM that is discussing this), but since you found it here first, you assume it’s just a bunch of silly Christians, and all you can do is foam at the mouth.
54. Not afraid of science | 07.08.08
I’m a Christian myself, but the FUD spread across this blog by the comments above make me ashamed to lump myself in with the same crowd. The amateur physics demonstrated and twisted to support spurious arguments that the world will end with the flip of a switch in Europe provide the kind of lowbrow comedy that Columbus must have had to deal with from those believing that dragons were waiting for him at the edge of his map.
55. website design | 07.08.08
Man they just don’t get it. It’s a win - win situation! For example, if there is no problem with the machine and we get teh Higgs Bosoms then hey good for those scientists they’ll probly get drunk and have nerd sex. Whoo! BUT what if it goes all kinds of crazy wrong? QUANTUM WORMHOLE! We get to ride the universe for eternity!
57. Michael Noonan | 07.10.08
Christians may find it interesting that the mathematics for quantum discovery is the sum of all histories. Put simply it means there is a non zero possibility that at any instant you are in all parts of the universe. Mathematics says you are all Gods. Well that is the mathematics of the God Particle and why quantum scientists say they would not be surprised if two red dragons emerged from the experiment. At the energy level being used the numbers break down and that is why a micro black hole or a God Particle or the Devil himself might make an entry. It is why I am displeased.
58. Michael Noonan | 07.11.08
Three score and ten years ago Albert Einstein tried to tell the scientists of the day that event horizons were wormholes. Likewise in times since others have tried that matter namely the proton is a stable wormhole. It changes not a jot what matter does just what matter is. It is not until one starts blasting holes in creation with the machine gun action of a particle accelerator is it realized the target for destruction is easier to hit than first thought.
The latest delay to firing the doomsday machine is the cross section of the target to hit is bigger than expected. With matter connected in structure in time from end to end in the universe that is exactly as it should be. The result could be an eternity of burning everything that has ever existed.
59. Robert I. Marsh II | 07.11.08
The LHC technologies, if long-term successful, could release information involving the manipulation of matter, luminosity (plasma), and energy, that would lead to a controllable, and sustainable nuclear fushion process! Still with extreme caution! The Quantum Wormhole would be initiated by an opposite and equal reaction of: quantum inverse (ghost’) radiation, engaging super-symmetric ‘feed-back loops’; thus powering the kinetic wormhole formation, and creating a stability factor!
60. Moscow never sleeps | 07.14.08
I think there are no reason to care about end of the world. The maximum what can happen its complite annihilation of France and Switzerland and global Ice Age after it!
For security reason I suggest to the civilians in the location of this machine to leave this place at time of experiment, and the people who do this experiments to warn those people before machine start to go on full power - for them to pray!
And this will never happen, because its stupid as a fact… Live such long time by creating such long history of human race and to reach the final step its destroying of all(except of correcting), for Nova World!??? I think God have a lot of places in hisshe’s hands to create New Worlds, or you think we dont like them because a lot of p0rn in internet!? OK… For example, the God is hate the p0rno, but why he is create them?
K.O. Have Nice Day, France and Switzerland! 
61. Mike NY | 07.15.08
The most intelligent minds and the most listened to people of their day also, without a doubt, concluded that the “Earth is flat,” that the “Earth is the center of the Universe,” and that “Man will never fly.”
Science is about not knowing everything. That’s why we explore and experiment. If you could prove anything without a doubt, only with theory, we would never need to experiment, and scientists would NEVER be proven wrong.
I guess that’s my subtle, long way of saying, scientists’ predictions and absolute assurances have been wrong in the past and will be wrong for years to come. It’s only an ignorant person who says that something is impossible when it’s never been tried before.
I say bring on the black holes and prove scientists don’t know everything!
62. tmeek | 07.16.08
To Walt,
your copied explanation from ted.com may work better here. my guess is that is why you copied it here more than a week later (word for word). if your arguement is against science than choose that battle. if your only intention is to be heard amongst those who will not argue with you, then you are doing a disservice to all. Brian Cox answered your question, and you had the oppurtunity to open up a dialogue. unfortunately, you chose the easier route (acceptance). give it another shot. it may, “in fact”, bring a more sophisticated dialogue.
63. Andrew Wilson | 07.16.08
Is there a date for the first experiment? The reason i ask is so i can take the day off and drink enough alcohol not to feel a thing…just in case!
65. The Truth | 07.16.08
Yes… cosmic rays have been hitting earth for millions of years, the only problem here, Earth particles are not moving at near light speed. Earth can’t move a centimeter without getting hit by cosmic rays. When cosmic rays hit an Earth particle, like a cure ball hitting racked balls, that particle will bounce into space at a high speed. So any black hole created by them will be moving so fast it wont cause any harm.
Now in the Large hadron Collider, protons will be speeding towards each other at near light speed, and what happens when two particles of the same speed hit each other dead on? Nothing bounces away! Any black hole created by the LHC will be stationary, or moving so slowly it will easily be captured by the earths gravity, and grow.
There is not way you can compare smashing protons in the LHC to cosmic rays hitting earth. If CERN wants to mimic nature, then one set of protons in the LHC, traveling at near light speed, should be hitting stationary protons.
Before someone brings up the theory Hawking Radiation to counter what I wrote here, someone has admitted it to be in error… CERN’s boy, Stephen Hawking admitted this back in 2004 when he lost a bet. Google it!
Lets see if anyone can counter these facts intelligently? My guess, they’ll pull a BushCo., and result to insults since they can’t counter this.
66. The Truth | 07.16.08
You know what, I google Hawking’s Radiation error. OUCH!
The smartest person in the world, so CERN and their followers state, had an error in his calculations dealing with Hawking Radiation theory. Stephen Hawking recalculated, but what if he’s completely wrong about black holes evaporating due to Hawking Radiation? He was wrong before about this theory, and didn’t know it until 30 years later.
Hawking Loses Bet; Changes Mind on Black Holes
http://www.space.com/news/hawking_bet_040716.html
Hawking loses black hole bet
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/19926
Hawking: I’ve solved the black hole riddle
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/jul/22/universe.spaceexploration
Thorne-Hawking-Preskill bet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorne-Hawking-Preskill_bet
Scientific wager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_wager
Losing an old bet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking#Losing_an_old_bet
67. BFG | 07.16.08
I am not letting someone, no matter how smart they say they are, to gamble with my life on a safety report that is not written in fact just theory. Its all theory, including the experiment which they have only theories on what they may find or happen.
The so called “smart scientists” do not know the full outcome of running this machine. So who are the dumb people, I would say the ones who blindly follow and trust these people with there lives. (oh, and don’t forget to kneel before them).
68. tmeek | 07.17.08
is there a difference between “theory” and “faith”? is faith only acceptable for those who follow a dogmatic religion? through the process of observation, which contains preconceived, intuitive and learned knowledge, an oppurtunity is created to allow yourself to “Believe” in its purpose. Right?
69. John B | 07.20.08
“If you believe that everything turns upon the free-will of man, you will naturally have man as its principal figure in your landscape.”
We can not present a theory as in its sole purpose for us to “Believe”, if we do not …through the process of observation,– which contains preconceived, intuitive and learned knowledge… is by “faith”, without works!
This day we may look for trial, and for work which will require energy, but we may just as confidently look for equal strength. This word is given to us also who have “faith” wherewith to appropriate it. Let us rise to the holy boldness which it is calculated to create within the believing heart.
70. Nutsinasack | 07.21.08
I hooked my car battery to all my magnet orbs 66 in all. Shot it the juice and now half my truck is gone go figure right.
WOW! YOU WOULD THINK WITH ALL THIS MONEY AND TRYING TO PLAY GOD THEY COULD COME UP WITH FOOD THAT LASTS FOREVER OR A CAR THAT GETS 999 MILES TO A GALLON.
What a waste unless it pays all our electric bills forever.
Wakeup your destiny is at hand.
71. PawandeeP | 07.22.08
Hi,
If someone thinks that earth is going to end after this experiment, then its gud, atleast ppl will start praying to god, helping others, feeding the poor/needy……….. i.e all the gud & religious works a human can do….
g8t …. keep it up
72. Michael Noonan | 07.24.08
On current theory the speed of the protons hitting head on causing micro black holes should still send most of the event horizons created away from the earth at 25,000 miles an hour or more which is escape velocity. Only the slower ones traveling under 25,000 miles an hour fall back into the earth if Hawking radiation fails. Could they destroy the earth?
Most of them will have enough speed to escape the entire solar system but certainly a larger percentage will get pulled into the sun than into the earth. It is more likely the sun would be destroyed long before the earth collapses. If we survived the loss of the sun then we could consider our options.
73. michael | 07.24.08
This is all nuts. these scientist r absolutley insane. I have a wife and child and I dont want anything to happen to them and also anyone else. Everyone should get together and file a big time lawsuit against the LHC so they wont turn it on and destroy earth.
lets all get together and file a lawsuit
74. tmeek | 07.25.08
the believing heart is not held by few, but held by all. agreed? why else would we all still be thriving on this planet?
as for the rest of what you wrote…. please try again. it is not cohesive.
75. tmeek | 07.25.08
p.s. - man is the principal figure in my landscape, yes! the question i presented was geared towards those who have a dogmatic faith. their existence lies in fear, and that is not the way to move forward! and to be completely honest, that is not faith!
76. Michael Noonan | 07.25.08
Faith is believing in God and the risen Son of God who will come again in Full Glory in the flesh and the spirit. That is faith. What science is proposing is an experiment based on a number of rather good observations and rather good leaps of intuitive logic but it is not faith. While man might believe himself to be master of what he sees it is important to know that man does not have God’s view of creation, the seen and the unseen. Man is therefore fallible and potentially just as likely to be wrong if not more so than man is likely to be right.
Interestingly enough there was very little comment made when someone suggested that not even God could sink the Titanic. After the Titanic sank was when people caught onto the idea that it was not wise to put God to the test. This simple comment:-
[quote]”The prospect of discovery, Dr. Virdee said, is what sustained him and his colleagues over the 16 years it took to develop their machine. Without such detectors, he said, “this field which began with Newton just stops.”
“When we started, we did not know how to do this experiment and did not know if it would work,” he said. “Twenty-five hundred scientists can work together. Our judge is not God or governments, but nature. If we make a mistake, nature will not hesitate to punish us.”[/quote]
I wonder if it is just as unwise to remove God from the picture.
77. Fred Scogins | 07.25.08
Yes I think it would be wise to remove the gods from the picture,they have no place in the grand design they condone greed and violence and allow thousands to die of starvation everyday,thousands to die of aids ect.
Neither the gods nor mankind are masters of this planet,but we are here and through our consciousness we must strive for equality for all in food,water,medicines,energy ect.
If the collider is the answer and mankind succeeds then the world will become infinitely better.
If we loose then it would have been just another August.
79. tmeek | 07.26.08
quote the bible, or quote the scientists… because that is what is presented to us and our fall back. more importantly though, never deny the true “uninfluenced” feeling that burns inside us. happy august to you all!
80. Fred Scogins | 07.26.08
Hi tmeek thank you.
The Collider is not the end of the world but the begining,so let us confound our critics and accelerate forward,then new unimaginable idears will appear and we can and will eliminate our worldly problems.
But if we stagnate we will continue to have people because they have no other food eating rats,we will still have starving children scrambling on the ground for a few grains of rice,and homeless people in Pakistan standing on the side of the roads with nothing to their name.
We even at the present moment have the means,but not the will to eradicate poverty,but now we have the chance to do away with it forever.
81. dman | 07.27.08
Ok, so everyone has been bickering and barking about something that has not even happened yet. The simple fact of the matter is that the scientests do not know what is going to happen. They can’t even say that black holes will be produced. So at this point it is at a dead heat as to what the result will be. The chances that the world will be destroyed are equally as good as the chances that the LHC will provide all the power the entire planet will ever need. What happens then? What happens when all your worrying is for nothing? You will move on to the next thing that you can bitch and moan about and forget that you ever gripped about this in the first place. You aren’t going to be able to stop them from starting up the LHC so just quit complaining and let it happen.
82. Guru Shaggy | 07.28.08
AH ha ha ha… ha ha.. ha.. ha
Well, this was a humorous waste of about an hour. Both sides of the debate, not picking on the religious or the non-religious, but I mean the pro-LHC (not gonna suck the planet up in a wormhole) and the anti-LHC (MY GOD WE ARE GONNA DIE!!!!), have missed the biggest piece of the puzzle here.
Who really and truly cares anyhow? I mean really, deep down in the pit or your soul… do you really and truly care? What the hell makes the parasite that we call mankind so special that warrants the concern as to whether we should start this machine up or not. I’d be more concerned about the other poor creatures on this little back water marble we call earth, because they have NO say and are totally innocent. In actual fact though, I really don’t care about them either… In the grandest schemes of things, our little rock WON’T be missed.
Like Y2K before this, I truly hope that the doomsday profits are right… hell, we’d all get what we deserve and if doesn’t happen, well, we are sure to blow our selves up soon enough with something else… Until then, I’ll just sit back and chuckle at everyone that post as if the care and/or really have a say in the matter… it’s all good entertainment… Beautiful baby!! BBQ at my place for the day they turn it on… and here’s hopin’ for the best light show EVER!!
Cheers!
Guru Shaggy
Now, go back to arguing…. I need more entertainment. lol.
83. Someguy | 07.28.08
You all are idiots. First of all, Hawking losing the best wasn’t because Hawking Radiation was a fake. It was because it used to be thought everything was lost to the universe when a black hole consumed it. Now, they know it DOES release information. If it can release information, then it can evaporate. Etc. This is all stupid. Everyone is complaining about some stupid machine and then there’s those sickos who like to say “Good. Humanity should die.” etc. Ya’ll are friggin sick. If you want to see it gone so badly, just off yourself already.
84. Adam | 07.28.08
Guru Shaggy, I bet you’ll be crying like a baby until the air gets sucked out of you before we implode into Earth’s dying furnace. Yeah, this planet is all jacked up due to greed, power and fame, but I truly believe we can turn this around and make this world a better place. I know… yeah right.
Why can’t these bastards be happy that they’re alive, instead of playing with their lives in a tomb. If CERN destroys Geneva, leaving the rest of the planet intact, I make a bet no one will take this as a wake-up call, and continue doing the same old same old. Either way, we’re screwed!
85. Guru Shaggy | 07.29.08
“Why can’t these bastards be happy that they’re alive, instead of playing with their lives in a tomb.” XACTLY!!!!! Who really gives a rats behind about how or what made the earth/us/the universe/goat cheese/Paris Hilton….
But dude, seriously…. been on death’s door twice already… ready to tuck the sheet over my head… definitely not as scary as they make it seem… no crying would be involved… just sweet everlovin’ peace Brother….
Oh, and someguy… would NEVER off myself… having to much bloody fun, my life ROCKS in every essence of the word, and I wouldn’t trade it for all of lifes little secrets. I just take trememdous pleasure in watching us spiral down the drain, because in the grandest of plans… we’re but a mere cat turd in the Sahara… Would be a pity to see it all go, but what the hell… we do deserve to reap what we sow.
BBQ still on at my place…
86. Kevin P. | 07.31.08
End-of-timers should be welcoming the Large Hadron Collider since they seem to think that the bible is predicting some cataclysmic accident. No need to freak, your beliefs are about to be validated ( of which they are seemingly always on the verge ). I personally believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster will be working overtime changing the results of the experiments with a touch of His noodly appendage, to disguse the fact that He only made the earth a few thousand years ago. I’m sure that scientists will be delighted with all of the new data produced by the LHC. Perhaps they’ll even discover the God particle, the elusive Higgs Boson which gives mass to everything.
In the end, everyone is happy about the LHC.
87. Mara Miller | 07.31.08
“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?” Revelation 6:12-17
88. Gary Isabusyguy | 08.01.08
Just wait, it gets better! We can all hold hands and hope that there is no information loss in a black hole!
That way we get to preserve our state, despite being crushed into an infinitesimally small space.
Everything will seem the same, just more people commenting on ‘What a small world it is’…
89. J | 08.01.08
FYI, it’s been on for a few days now.
Oh hail mighty God and the end of the world?
Silly religious zealots…
90. Fred Scogins | 08.02.08
ello its August,and if I can believe what I read the injections into the collider start this month and the first collisions are due in 2 or 3 months. It will then carry on for 10 years and the computing grid is going to make how many calculations a second??
Oh,and this will give some people the shivers there is a Super LHC planned.
That is if everything goes well this month.
Seriously,we have a chance to glimpse our future,we must take it.
92. Sean the Maggot | 08.07.08
To Whom It may Concern:
On behalf of my esteemed associates and myself, I’d like to announce that we are put on a very generous retainer by an interested party to participate in the event known as Armageddon. As of this August we have yet to receive any notification to prepare for mobilization. We are to expect the unexpected, as per our agreement with the interested party. The LHC is not the notification we need. Our mutual understanding with the interested party is that we will be receiving our alert through our Blackberry devices.
Please remain calm. We will definitely let you know when it is time.
Sincerely,
Ares, Limos, Lues, Mortis and Associates
93. benito | 08.07.08
The time frame is dubious. Professor rossler calculates 50 months to 50 years for a micro black hole to devour Earth.
Professor Rossler details Seven Reasons for concern if micro black holes are created. (http://www.wissensnavigator.com/documents/spiritualottoeroessler.pdf and references)
Highlights:
1) Black holes cannot evaporate… [theories by Rossler, Helfer, Belinski, etc. support this]
3) Miniblack holes grow exponentially … [Dr. Rossler calculates 50 months to 50 years].
4) … man-made [micro black holes] … alone are slow enough with respect to the earth that one of them (at less than 11 km/sec) can take residence? in contrast to the almost-luminal speeds of their natural cousins.
5) CERN‘s counterargument… white dwarfs … natural miniblack hole… can pass through
7) neutron stars … are protected by quantum coherence effects of the superfluidity type: so miniblack holes can pass without friction.
94. Stephanie | 08.07.08
I Think That This Is Ridiculous!!!!
Why Are They even doing this.
I Am Furious And scared…
95. pitt bull | 08.09.08
There is something you must know our planet’s inner core is not made of molten iron but it is a neutron star yes a tiny star filled with elektrons so if a tiny black hole was created it will fall in this neutron core and start devour it however elektrons ar much less dense than matter so it will probably take hundreds of years before it can substantially grow. Meanwhile it will however create time space distortions gravity distortions any many other hazards. The earth will also spin faster thus time will go faster and faster in the long run (over many decades or hundreds of years either way this collider is not such a good idea.
In fact it is plain arrogance if you ask me. Why don’t these brilliant scientist invent free energy since they claim to be intelligent or find a cure to cancer or hiv or eradicate poverty…
No this is not about science but about men showing how big his alter ego is and big it is 27 km in circumferance stretching from france to vienna ….
96. iceman | 08.10.08
I think all of the people involved in this project need to be hunted down with all the other terrorists and put in jail! Theses people (scientists) are nothing more than terrorists and should have no rights to build anything that even has the slightest chance of harming the world or even a city for that matter.The people involved in this project and everyone else that thinks they know what is going to happen when this is started up is wrong! Because the actual truth of the matter is everyone is guessing and has no clue what will happen until it happens. Bottom line is this is terrorism on a mass scale !!!!
97. Fred Scrogins | 08.14.08
Startup is now the 10th of September 2008,the collisions will begin at the end of the year and there is no conceivable danger!!!!!
98. ryan | 08.27.08
Alot of hate in the world. I’m not an expert on the matter but the amount of hate for those of faith is disturbing. I have to feel that if all faiths learn to co-exist that those who place their faith in science will find it easier to mock the masses. I personally believe in God and I proclaim myself as a Christian. I feel no ill will or hate for any other faith. I find myself respecting their beliefs (If they’re not trying to kill me!)
I have yet to find that respect for those proclaim to be educated and followers of Science. No faith is perfect because humans are not perfect. The point which is often missed is to try your best to be more like your God. I have friends who are atheists but they don’t ridicule me for my belief. I find this rare in the atheist community. I apologize that this comment has very little to do with the LHC. I see discrimination and hatred in modern science. I know Christians haven’t always acted like Christians but I ask those who follow science to stop discriminating against me, my family and all those like me.
99. Anirudh Kumar Satsangi | 08.29.08
Dear Dr. Kaku
Apropos an article ‘Looking for a higher theory of everything’ Interaction: Michio Kaku published in Times of India, New Delhi on seventh June 2008 at page number fourteen. I have written following two papers which may lead to the realisation for a higher theory of everything:
(i) Gravitation Force is the Ultimate Creator,
(1st Int. Conf. on Revival of Traditional Yoga, Lonavla Yoga Institute, Lonavla, January, 2006)
(ii) In Scientific Terminology, Source of Gravitational Wave is God
(2nd World Congress on Vedic Science, BHU, Varanasi, Feb 2007)
I have presented these two papers at the two different International Conferences. I am now submitting some views for being considered for Unified Field Theory
From Scriptures:
The Current which manifested in the beginning of the creation is the Current of Sabda (Sound) and of Chaitanya (Consciousness). From whom that Current issued forth is known as Soami (Supreme Being). This Current, by turning back can merge again in the Holy Feet of Supreme Being. The entire creation manifested from this current and is sustained with its energy and when the Current of the Holy Feet is withdrawn, the creation ceases to exist.This Current of the Holy Feet is the Reservoir of all energy, tastes and pleasures, knowledge, skill, shapes, forces and light etc. etc. and of the entire creation, is also the Creator of all of them.
From Science:
Gravitation Force is the cause of manifestation of the creation (birth of planets, stars), its sustenance and when it is withdrawn towards centre or source the entire creation ceases to exist. Photons have originated from gravitons. In black holes photons merge into gravitons. In Black Holes, Gravitational Force is so high that it does not allow even light to escape. What does it mean then? It simply means that the gravitational force at black-holes attracts light towards it with much greater velocity than the speed of light. In fact, all forces including electromagnetic force, material force (strong and weak nuclear force) all merge into gravitational force in black-holes and becomes one force there and when the creational process starts again from a Black-Hole all the forces appear (manifest) again and descends downwards to create billions of stars, planets, satellite, asteroids and various life forms. In Einstein’s Formula for mass-energy relation E=Mc2 if speed ‘equal to’ c2 is a reality it reaffirms the views contained above.
Hence it can be assumed that the Current of Chaitanya (Consciousness) and Gravitational Wave are the two names of the same Supreme Essence (Seed) which has brought forth the entire creation.
With warm regards.
Yours truly,
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi, Dayalbagh Educational Institute (Deemed University), Dayalbagh, Agra-282110, India
Reply awaited please
100. Anirudh Kumar Satsangi | 08.29.08
In view of my views above with regards to the creation of the universe there is no need of experimentation with LHC if there is any risk is involved at all. At the time of the birth of the universe Gravitational Wave was first issued forth and all other energy including light and matter are the modification of the gravitation force. At the end of the creation all forces will merge into gravitation force and it will ultimately absorve in Its Source i.e. God.
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
8, Jeevan Jyoti Enclave, Dayalbagh, Agra-282005, India
101. Anirudh Kumar Satsangi | 08.29.08
Kindly refer to my views at sl. No. 99 above. In view of this there is no need of experimentation with LHC if there is any risk is involved in it.
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
1. Robert I. Marsh II | 07.01.08
With half of the ‘Standard Model’ missing, shrouded within a mathematical haze of pure speculation (guessing), and CERN LHC being built upon these antiquated precepts, there is no telling what surprises await the CERN experiments! It will take these experimental discoveries, in order to extricate the physics community from their current stagnated, depressing, and quagmired positions! At least one sector of the ‘Standard Model’ will receive a tsunami of change, that will send the mathematicians and physicists scrambling wildly to install these new, much needed corrections! There is no doubt, that the future world desperate energy needs lie in LHC technologies; however, the production course should be traveled with extreme caution! The LSAG ’safety report’ only covers the lower energy ’start-up’ 2008 operation projections, and nothing toward the CERN pre-planned decade of precision energy upgrades, set to begin in 2009! This report also only covers previous public dockets of concern, but reflects nothing upon new emerging concerns, that are being raised ‘Behind Closed Doors’! The media is either unwilling or unable to penetrate the CERN ’safe-harbor’ meetings? CERN, at this time is grappling with multiple variance-calculation paradoxes, and was doing so as Michelangelo Mangano (and others) penned the safe go ahead! A ‘quiet the public’ document, that is anchored to the hole in a doughnut! I’ve read many comments, that suggest a Blackhole has been discovered: Inside the LSAG ’safety report’!!! But seriously — two situations have come to light: #1). CERN uncertainty concerning 2009 (once financed) ALICE heavy (Pb) ion collisions RE: Quantum Time-Dilation Contraction-Calibration Equations, used for particle beam timing/focus, to coordinate the two beams impact, in order to create optimum collisions per second, for analysis. These calculations must be precise, or damage to the facility can occur! #2). ALICE heavy ion collisions create hyper-density plasmatic fields, that can affect a gravitational curvature; which can allow a compression singularity vortex to form, and an event-horizon expansion. This is known as the: Einstein-Rosen Bridge wormhole: QUANTUM WORMHOLE!