U.S. Senator Barrack Obama (D-IL), makes Pastor Rick Warren (R) laugh during a news conference at the 2006 Global Summit on AIDS and the Church at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California December 1, 2006. (Mark Avery/Reuters/Newscom)
McCain, Obama & Rick Warren - The “Purpose-Driven Debate”
By Jimmy Orr | 08.16.08
Whose side is God on? Although that probably won’t be determined tonight, we will see Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this political season.
Brought together by the best-selling author and pastor of the fourth largest church in the U.S., pastor Rick Warren will talk to both candidates tonight for about an hour each.
The focus is on faith. Specifically, as Monitor colleague Jane Lampman reported earlier this week, Mr. Warren’s questions will focus on how the candidates lead and make decisions and will cover five topics: leadership, stewardship, worldview, compassion issues, and their vision for America.
The format is somewhat similar to a game show with Warren playing the part of Wink Martindale. One candidate in a soundproof bubble (or room) while the other candidate is on stage. Obama is up first and then McCain. The order was determined by a coin-flip.
They will be asked the same questions and their personal life is on the table because “character matters,” Warren said.
“I’m going to ask them questions about character, competence, about values, vision, virtue, about their convictions in leadership, about their experience,” Warren told the Christian Broadcasting Network yesterday.
Warren told the New York Times that a typical question could be “What’s the most difficult decision you’ve had to make, and how did you make it?”
Warren said to expect questions on abortion and marriage too.
“The person who says well I’m going to put my faith on the shelf and not let it affect my decisions as President is either lying or they’re ignorant because you can’t do it,” he said. “Every one of your decisions you make is based on your world view. So I’m going to ask them about abortion. I’m going to ask them about the definition of marriage, but I’m also going to ask them more than that in that third section on “World View.”
How did this event get put together? Warren just called them on his cell phone.
The event will start at 8pm on CNN, FOX and CSPAN. It will also be streamed live on saddlebackcivilforum.com .
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2. Josey | 08.16.08
This is ludicrous. Some guy from the Church of What’s Happening Now gets to be the front man in a debate. Unbelievable.
3. JesusTaughtPacifism | 08.16.08
Since wars have been a major part of the 6000 years of history, and they are not going away–and humans will have the ability to end mankind and have done virtually nothing to get rid of nukes, how would each candidtate put effort into starting the process of deproliferation?
It is possibly the most important question in the history af mankind, and we have been too shy to ask it.
4. Brock | 08.16.08
Is it fair to assume that Warren will ask McCain about his divorce and what led up to his divorce?
5. Mark | 08.16.08
Throughout American history, the church has insisted the government leave it alone while it maintains the right of exerting influence on the state. But Rick Warren has for some time closely collaborated with high-profile governmental leaders, and not just US leaders (ex: the president of Syria). This latest meeting with McCain and Obama is just another of many recent forays into the political arena. Mr. Warren is not the only American religious leader to have such close relationships, presumably with motives of furthering their own religious or social agendas.
I assert however that these “church” leaders actually have their own political agenda and are not just in bed with their political cronies to accomplish religious goals. There’s too much blurring of the lines between church and state going on here, and it’s been happening too long, to reasonably believe otherwise.
Perhaps there are long-term power goals being played out here, with the church serving as just another tool in the hands of modern social engineers. And the church seems more than happy to lie down in bed with these folks.
Hmmm …
6. Stephani Brian | 08.16.08
I eagerly await both candidates answers to these important questions.
I’m optimistic that Obama and I agree on many things, skeptical that McCain
and I do.
7. Joe | 08.16.08
To “JesusTaughtPacificm” — nuclear deproliferation has had huge strides forward since the cold war. Gorbachef and Reagan presided over the largest deproliferation and destruction in the history of mankind. I agree, though, in part. We have a long, long way to go, and the risk of global destruction still hangs over our heads.
To “Mark” — American history has shown that “the church” has gone from being an institution that was expressly sanctioned and dictated by the state (see early constitutions of the original 13 states) to the state allowing freedom of religious practice across the board for every religion. I hardly call that controlling.
The Christian church has always had a political agenda, as has the Jewish and other religions practiced in the United States. The one admission that everyone must make in the 21st century is that politics and religion clearly do and will always mix.
It is without doubt in Rev. Rick Warren’s interest in pursuing this interview. And it is his constitutional right to do so. We so often forget that freedom of speech and expression lies at the heart of our political system. Criticism, of course, does too.
8. Jerry | 08.16.08
I can’t believe such negative comments. Are there no optimists left in this world? I think this may be one of the most important Interview ever held with two potential world leaders . I am looking forward to it… with hopes
that some hard questions (personal & political) will be asked AND answered.
9. Marty | 08.16.08
To Mark above me you’re just paranoid buddy.
To exclude a candidate’s faith would be much like excluding the state of their health. You just can’t do it. A mans faith colors the way he sees and acts on EVERYTHING. Faith shapes your character and character matters in a president.
So good for you Rick Warren I’m sure you will be fair and hope you ask a lot of tough questions.
10. Ajay | 08.16.08
It may in fact be a telling and exciting interview; but it is really a shame that it is being brought up with a “focus on faith”.
It is a Constitutional imperative that there be no religious test for public office. Why even COLOR the most important secular decision of the decade with religious coloration? Especially from a large organized church?
11. Henster123 | 08.16.08
Idiocy.
This Republic is in deep trouble.
Celebrities Obama, McCain and Warren are evidence.
12. JayCee | 08.16.08
Why are some people so concerned that a Christian pastor will be moderating tonight’s event? There have been plenty of non-Christian moderators asking the candidates questions thus far. Could there be some fear that their candidate may reveal something of his true beliefs and values that will actually matter to likely voters?
Hmmm…
13. john | 08.16.08
Very interesting comments from all. I have to agree with Ayjay though.
I think that the trend towards “faith based” politics has led to an excess of certainty and confidence in our leaders that has contributed to catastrophic government decisions. I think Bush has been presumptuous to think his ends are God’s… just as it’s presumptuous of Islamists to think as such. McCain’s and Obama’s original instincts to be reticent on matters of faith were correct and in keeping with the sound thinking of most of the ‘founding fathers’ (though I’m not asserting a faith based belief in them either). It’s too bad the candidates have had a change of heart on this.
14. Rev. Keith R. Wright (Deist) | 08.16.08
“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the American flag, carrying the cross.”
It Can’t Happen Here
1935 Sinclair Lewis
Our constitution forbids a religious test for our leaders yet we have this event today (sad).
The relationship between a man and God (or the absense thereof) is of no concern to any other man.
Piety is no guarantee of morality or is the country really that stupid.
Rick Warren preaches the prosperity gospel…quite the opposite of the simple life eschewed by the mythical Christ.
“Christians” as Warren calls his sect, didn’t believe in the trinity for hundreds of years…until a committee decided what was holy and what wasn’t.
What about the Catholics and the Apocryphia…does Warren negate their faith because they have an additional book to draw from?
What is more important in this discussion, is how our leader will respect the (dis)beliefs of ALL Americans and not just one sect.
“The population of my neighborhood is too slender, and is too much divided into other sects to maintain any one preacher well. I must therefore be contented with being a Unitarian by myself.” Thomas Jefferson
As far as denying the trinity, our most noble of the founding fathers from whom flowed the Declaration of Independence and the Virgina rules of religious freedom and countless other works of remarkable insight…would fail as a candidate under the scrutiny of the money-hungry Warren and his narrow-minded view of presidential mettle.
Rev. Keith R. Wright
The United Deist Church
15. N. K. Hart | 08.16.08
Article VI. of The Constitution states….
“no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
What the hell are they thinking? This is unconstitutional.
16. jesse | 08.16.08
Adultery cast a shadow on a person’s ethics. It does not necessarily mean that the offending person is a bad person but it defines the person’s credibility and respect of the political office he/ she holds or aspired for.
John McCain had a well-documented affair on his first wife, former model Carol Shepp with his current wife, formerly Cindy Lou Hensley. Cindy was much young, beautiful and with lots Budweiser money to support his political ambition. The LA Times had reported that McCain obtained an Arizona marriage license on March 6, 1980, while still legally married to Carol. On Friday, February 12, 1999 when questioned about the affair by CNN’s Bernard Shaw, the Arizona senator said. “Let me say that I am responsible for the breakup of my first marriage. I will not discuss or talk about that any more than that. If someone wants to criticize me for that, that’s fine.”
Later on McCain went on to cheat on his second wife Cindy with a much young and beautiful lobbyist Vicki Iseman. Vicki Iseman represented telecommunication companies on the Senate Commerce Committee that John chaired. They contributed tens of thousands of dollars to McCain’s campaigns. In return, McCain championed de-regulation for them. He pressured the FCC to uphold marketing agreements that allows television companies to control two stations in the same city and introduced a bill to create tax incentives program for them.
Two times, he tried to advance legislation that would permit a company to control television stations in overlapping markets. If John Edwards’ political career is over, why isn’t John McCain’s? Is McCain credible enough to be trusted to serve as a President? Once a cheater shall always be a cheater. A man that cannot be faithful to his loving, self-sacrificing wives cannot be trusted to be faithful to the American people.
17. JesusTaughtPacifism | 08.16.08
Joe — Yes, I realize the Gorbachev and Reagan agreed to limit the number of nukes we could keep –to only a few (8) thousand. But as the old bumper sticker goes, “Just one nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day.”
All they did was get rid of the junk in their attic. I don’t really call that “huge strides.”
A new round of hate has occurred in the last 7 years when the US collected some debts its frieds owed it and invaded another sovereign, oil-rich country.
18. Chris | 08.16.08
While a religious test may not be required for the job, it is really important for those of faith in deciding who we want in office. It is THE most important thing, particularly on topics like abortion and gay marriage. Although secular people may be more concerned about the economy or the war, some of us believe what the Old Testament demonstrates time and time again: if your nation/people are obedient to God, you will be blessed. If not, you will be cursed. I would prefer to stick with an individual that isn’t in favor of things I don’t believe God approves of just because I want healthcare or out of Iraq.
19. John | 08.16.08
Thanks Jimmy for posting this setting up this little friendly discussion.
Nothing like the mix of religion and politics to bring out the best in all of us.First a disclaimer that I know isn’t necessary because we are all informed adults here but in the chance that we’re taking that for granted, I beg your patience while I say it anyway. No one in America speaks for the whole Church when they speak into the public forum. Not all christians line up with any “voting bloc”, not even among the evangelical wing, must-less the liberal wing. I’m afraid we all have much to confess when it comes to our politics- at the top of my list is the predominance of the bold faced lie. The scriptures, and Christ himself rated this a most serious and rellious act. The Apostle of love, John the beloved, said some pretty severe things about be people of truth reminding “his little children” that Satan was the Father of the lie and a lier from the beginning. Since this is the bad guy, the enemy of God and His creation, we should not have anything to with “making a lie”.Look at the very last chapter of the Bible also written by the same Apostle of love and see who is left out of the New Jerusalem.
Thank you for being patient to hear me out. I’m afraid an earlier comment may be the truth- Warren has his agenda and perhaps he feels that the mantle of the fallen leaders of the religious right has fallen on him. I think this may just be the official “anointing” of John McCain as the next President.
20. old mo | 08.16.08
One will get you ten that Obama already has the questions. Wait and see how many times he says “uh, as I have said before”, “as I have said many times I was against this war from the very beginning”. These are some of his favorite “fillers” while he is trying to think of something to say. If there is a lot of them, he has not seen the questions before hand. If he jumps right into the question with an answer—you be the judge. That is not his style.
21. Arlene L. Hicks | 08.16.08
The Deist pastor in an above posting says Rick Warren preaches the prosperity gospel. If this were true why would he be living on just 10% of his income and not take a salary from the church? When his second book became extremely popular and money began to come in, he figured out how much salary Saddleback Church had paid him all the years he had been pastor and gave back every bit of it, and no longer takes a salary. He now donates 90% of his income to charity.
I look forward to seeing the interviews because I don’t think Rick Warren will have any “Gotchas” in his questioning.
22. Politi-cat | 08.16.08
To JesusTaughtPacifism
I agree that we’ve never fully dealt with nuclear proliferation and the excessive amounts of loose nukes out there… what offends me is how condemn and want to control Iran’s access, but Israel can have them; N. Korea, no; America, yes… you know. Do as I say, not as I do.
That said, I just want to say that I don’t see this as a test of faith TO BE President — but I believe it will reveal significant differences between these two candidates. I like that each will be out of hearing the other.
I believe Barack Obama has a deep spiritual life that DOES guide him as a man and as a father and husband. I deeply respect the values and morals of this intelligent and caring man.
I have NO respect for John McCain in that regard. He’s proven himself to be an adulterer and a moral wasteland. He has no ethics and will say or do anything to become president… The ease with which he hurls his anger and racial epithets (gook, “tar baby”) show his true hatred of those “not like him” which I suppose to be rich, white and born into the lucky sperm club… His constant claim to “know war” and to “know how to win wars” offends and scares me. It scares me for my children and grand-children.
I think tonight will show those differences. This is beyond the ideology of abortion rights or marriage or human rights — it will be a measure of each man’s inner convictions.
I’d like to pose a question, if anyone is reading these comments to maybe get questions:
What are the 3 most important things in your life?
I would love to know the answer to that question from each man.
23. Patrick | 08.16.08
I read comments that pastor Warren will ask McCain and Obama questions about abortion and same sex marriage,but then I heard on the news that pastor Warren wont ask those two questions,why?If he does not,then this benifits Obama and this was a total sham and all christans should know the truth behind pastor Warren and Obama!!!!!Read between th lines!!!!
24. Luke Lasange | 08.16.08
The rest of the western world look at events like this and chuckle, and then despair. That the religious vote dominates US politics to the extent it does is a tragedy. There has been for some time a campaign by a portion of the evangelical right to paint Obama as an anti-christ figure. Can you imagine what would happen if on the basis of an interview such as this, the election was decided? It would spark a worldwide existential crisis. The rest of the world would be dumbfounded at the idea that the leader of the most powerful nation on earth was selected on the basis of the opinions of people who believe in the existence of a Biblical God, who became incarnate to be scape-goated for humanity’s sins. What a proposterous metaphysical nonsense to base world leadership on. And tell me mega-churches aren’t cultish, with all those trance “Allelujahs” and “Praise Jay-zus!” yawps. It is events like this interview that sit comfortably in second place behind US foreign policy as the top factors fuelling negative opinio of the US internationally. Shameful stuff.
25. Michael | 08.16.08
Obama has shown his willingness to tell the audience (which ever audience he happens to be speaking to) just what they want to hear, in a very eloquant manner. I am certain that he will do a wonderful job pretending to be an honest, faithful God-fearing man tonight and the American public will buy into it. As for the color of Obama? He’s a camelion(sp?)–what ever color he needs to be for the moment.
26. Patrick | 08.16.08
Hey politi-catlets,lets go over Obamas back ground shall we,Obama is friends with a domestic terrorist “Bill Aires”friends with a slum lord “Rezco”and had a racist/American hater in a pastor that he called his spiritual advisor for over 20 years!!!My momma allways told me you are who you surround yourself with!!Not only that, what makes Obama experience to president any way?145 day in office?WooooooooooooooooooW!!!!
27. shortstop | 08.16.08
To AJAY - calling this or any other election a ’secular’ decision is close-minded at best. It is much more than that.
To POLITI-CAT - Your comment regarding Obama having a deep spiritual life - know that Satanists have a deep spiritual life, too. Anyone with no respect for the unborn child has no morals. And no, I do not make my election choices by the abortion issue alone.
Bottom line is both candidates are sinners…..but which one is evil?
And on a separate note: Separation of church and state was never meant to be what it has become. There will never be true separation of ‘church and state’ unless our faith based country changes its constitution and each of our 50 states changes theirs. (Read all 50 preambles.) God is revered, thanked, glorified and honored in every one of them.
And as long as our courts grant divorces for marriages initiated in the church - they are more guilty than anyone. Send those couples back to the church with their marital problems. If they can’t reconcile let the church work out the details and settlements. Keep the courts and government out of it. Think of the reduced workload for our judges. They would just have to ’sign off’ the already prepared and agreed upon settlements. But then, no, there would be less in the lawyers pockets….. If they ever take the Bible out of the courtroom - our entire judicial system will lose all credibility.
28. auskosh | 08.16.08
it’s only fitting that religious affliates are asking the questions for a religion-crazed society. perhaps we’ll see the light of truth shown upon our candidates aided by the gracious lips of an extremely wealthy pastor. obama reigns!
29. Dan | 08.16.08
Peace be unto you all, for Jesus, Lord of Peace, said (King James Bible, Luke 19:27), “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
World English Bible:
“But bring those enemies of mine who didn’t want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me.”
Religion has always brought great peace to the world and will continue to do so as long as we can keep that evil science (and learning new facts) at bay. Help our Dear Leader, Presisdent Bush, and the religious RIGHT destroy the unbelievers and put food on their families. Bring ‘em on! For we are RIGHT and RIGHTOUS and all that’s good in the world. “You’re either with us or you’re against us.” And help our Dear Leader edumacate our youngins. “Rarely is the question asked, Is our children learning?” “You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.”
“See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.”
“I’ll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office.” May 12, 2008
Don’t worry Dear Leader, by then you’ll be able to move to the 98,000 acre site you purchased in Paraguay and have American taxpayers foot the bill for Blackwater to keep you safe from those nasty police coming to arrest you for war crimes.
God Bless The Richest
30. Chris | 08.16.08
To Luke Lasange: I used to feel the same way about Christians, and probably had the same level of hatred, annoyance, whatever you want to call it…but then, just like they say, my life was changed after I became a Christian. You can laugh in ridicule. I probably would have back in my time too, but let’s get realistic, is it really a tradgedy that religion plays a role in choosing our leader? I can think of a lot of other more agressive, evil intended groups than a bunch of Christians, can’t you? I stand by my earlier statement that if we become an obedient nation, the rest will fall into place (including foreign policy). Just like everything else in the Bible, the human logical solutions don’t work like good old faith.
31. shortstop | 08.16.08
It’s a shame that with all the resources available out there, people still confuse true Christianity with ‘religions’. They are not one and the same.
And if all Christians got off their rumps and voted God’s will - our country indeed would be blessed again.
2 Chronicles 7:14-15 (New King James Version)
….if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place.
32. Lynn | 08.16.08
More of the same old, same old. I hope Obama used his time in Hawaii practicing his pontificating . . . and correcting his stuttering problem. Hey, if you’re an inexperienced empty suit you have to overcompensate by wrapping yourself is religious cloth and announcing yourself as the answer to America’s prayers.
33. Dan | 08.16.08
“There will never be true separation of ‘church and state’ unless our faith based country changes its constitution…”
With all due respect, Shortstop, you should read the US Constitution and not spread hearsay & rumors. There’s no mention of God there. And there’s none in any of the Amendments either. Those who actually do read the Constitution, the Amendments and read about the Framers, such as Thomas Jefferson, know it wasn’t based on anyone’s notion of god or religion. In fact, the US Constitution bars ANY and ALL religious tests to hold any office in the federal government. The First Amendment strictly forbids the US Government from making any laws having to do with religion and therefore guarantees our freedom FROM religion. This is a good thing as it helps keep things like myths and superstitions out of our law-making and greatly reduces the chances that the US will be turned into a theocracy by the Religious Right. Thank god! (a little joke there)
34. shortstop | 08.16.08
Dan - okay - maybe i got carried away while typing ‘constitution’ - but go ahead and check the states preambles……God is in every one of them. I don’t see tonight’s debate as a religious test. let’s see how much time obama wastes with his empty answers
35. zak | 08.16.08
I don’t care that it’s “religious”. I want either man to take on ANYTHING philosophical.
It will reveal character as prescribed.
You can’t fake personal convictions (or lack of them) whether you spent 20 years sleeping through sermons or paying attention.
saddlebackcivilforum.com is going to need some serious bandwidth.
36. Marta K | 08.16.08
Some of the questions being asked are too stupid (”Does evil exist?”) for something as important as a Presidential debate. Have we really slipped so far as a country into imbecility that questions about evil become a real political topic? I knew our education system was slipping but geez, this is frightening!
Furthermore, religion has no place in politics and people need to remember that the original founding fathers never implied or stated that our government should be based on one faith. In fact, this country was founded by people who left Europe trying to escape that kind of oppression.
37. Marta K | 08.16.08
a national emergency plan for orphans? How about prevention?! It’s called birth control. And where are the families of these orphans? Are these orhpans born to mothers who have NO relatives? (furthermore, where are all the wealthy churches who preach against abortion and birth control? Why aren’t they taking care of these orphans?)
38. craig | 08.16.08
another good argument for an IQ test requirement to vote are those in this forum critical of a pastor of any cloth moderating a debate when they have no concern that most debates are performed by a so called journalist or more aptly put celebrity interviewer who definitively brings their personal political bias to the Q&A. Anderson cooooper or christina mathews asking the questions and picking the candidate to ask in a primary debate for a party he does not even support and clearly admits he will vote against regardless of his own party’s cadidate? Come on. can we continue as a country to allow such ignorant on incompetent people to help choose our leadership? No wonder washington has been broken for decades.
39. shortstop | 08.16.08
so what is the difference between mass murders by genocide or abortions? murder is murder. he never answered the question about ‘when’ a baby starts to have rights…guess he doesn’t think they have any. and to lump all those making 150,000 and under is ridiculous…..tell that so someone making less than 40,000.
and he calls himself a Christian???
40. Marta K | 08.16.08
Craig,
I believe the debates Cooper hosted had questions provided by Americans (viewers), but yes, in general I agree with you. Most people do not realize that ALL media (radio, paper, internet, TV) in this country are owned by approx FIVE individuals (very wealthy ones) each with a personal agenda that their employees are forced to advance (and if you won’t or don’t agree, you either are never hired or get fired if already on staff. Ask all the journalists who were told they had to actively support Bush’s war machine early on in this debacle or else…)
41. craig | 08.16.08
ps to dan, the moron I speak of. suggesting others as the ones spreading the constitutional falsehoods and then doing so yourself as a self proclaimed expert. You have the most simplistic misinterpretation of the “religious freedom” amendment of modern history. Get an education, and while I probably cannot convince you and your kind to stop blogging your poisons and ignorance, would you mind ceasing to vote until you realize your ignorant insanities?
42. Michelle King | 08.16.08
Boy, did Obama say a whole lot of nothing, he just explained himself into a stoned demeanor. He pussy-footed around having to answer alot of questions and this naive nation is eating it up like candy, can’t they see the “b.s” and the inexperienced stuper??? I wish someone would believe in some tradition, that this country is built on instead of demeaning it with same sex marriage, that’s not freedom that’s a curse why would we practice it? Why would we cater to all these other beliefs in our country when our country has freedom from believing in God? Why should we allow ourselves to compromise our beliefs for the sake of a another fallen belief or religion? Why can’t we be strong as a country, together instead of allowing weakness to rule over our belief system. It won’t be respected if we show weakness. I hope McCain can touch on this.
43. Marta K | 08.16.08
Patrick,
You don’t know much about McCain’s background and “untoward” associations and activities…do you? I see you have only delineated those you believe are attributable to Obama…McCain has PLENTY.
44. Marta K | 08.16.08
Michelle King,
Are you watching the same debate as the rest of us? I heard plenty of specificity from Obama. It will be interesting to see if McCain adds to his growing list of contradictions and reversals.
45. Marta K | 08.16.08
I wish McCain would stop saying “My friends…” He’s not my friend and doesn’t even know me…doesn’t live in any kind of world that I do. His wife’s family fortune puts him in a world/class known only to the top 1% of wealthy taxpayers. Warren should ask him what milk and gas cost in the grocery store and gas station closest to one of his SEVEN homes. I bet he won’t know.
46. Natalia Montserrat | 08.16.08
Currently watching the Civil Forum at Saddleback on CNN. I am frustrated. Specifically, because it doesn’t seem like an even forum or audience for that matter. I am a southern california resident and as well all know, the “OC” as it is referred to is a red county with a very strong conservative, wealthy right wing base. In other words, John McCain’ dream and Obama’s nightmare.
McCain is breezing through all the questions. To his credit, he answers consistently and concisely with little room for ambiguity. Pastor Warren appears more at ease as if he’s have having a casual conversation with a long time friend. Plent of smiles and laughs and comments about having enought time for a “game of poker.”
Obama struggled as he went in circles. No surprise here…reason being that there is lots of ambiguity when you come from the left when it comes to religious issues such as abortion, stem cell research, supreme court judges, etc.
John McCain’s advantage is that responses from the conservative right when it comes to religion are black and white and for democrats there is a lot of gray and that does not and cannot work for the saddleback community.
I am disappointed by this event for numerous reasons but I don’t believe the candidates are on equal footing. In fact, I just realized that Pastor Warren failed to refer to scripture with McCain. I guess it doesn’t help Obama any when he doesn’t look like your average Orange County resident hitting balls on the golf course followed by a good martini…
47. Chris | 08.16.08
Marta K: I’ve got to back Michelle King up on this one. I think it is no coincidence that John McCain is going through the questions quicker…because he is actually answering them directly, unlike Obama and his long, droning responses which left me still saying, “but the question was…”
48. Marta K | 08.16.08
WHAT? Oh these questions are getting sillier by the minute: “what should the US do to end religious persecution?” Since when is that our national political goal???? (or even our duty…or our right?)
49. Marta K | 08.16.08
Chris,
This is a neo-con evangelical audience. If you don’t think that McCain wasn’t given the questions in advance and wasn’t coached on answers (and isn’t wearing an ear piece with someone talking in his ear like Bush did or isn’t reading a teleprompter), you aren’t too savvy about politics. This audience would never listen to a thing Barack Obama says or believe him even if he says things they are in complete agreement on. Just like they say they don’t know anything about him when there is a dearth of info out there about him, or some swear he is Muslim despite the fact that he’s not and never has been.
50. shortstop | 08.16.08
“”In fact, I just realized that Pastor Warren failed to refer to scripture with McCain. I guess it doesn’t help Obama any when he doesn’t look like your average Orange County resident hitting balls on the golf course followed by a good martini…”"
even with the scripture references obama couldn’t tailor his answers for the audience this time. he showed his true colors alright - totally hypocritical and spineless. he clearly does not do well when backed against the wall.
51. Marta K | 08.16.08
McCain talking about 40 year old torture techniques is a good example of how he is too trapped in wars past and is just too old for the job. Different (modern) times call for different )modern) leaders.
52. Bulldog | 08.16.08
There are a couple points that I would like to address:
1. This was not a debate. Debates are defined when to opposing sides engage in opinionated rhetoric between each other while being timed — this was a Question and Answer forum — period.
a. I cannot wait to hear them actually debate — side to side after being given a resolution or question, rather.
2. This forum was not compulsory for either candidate and neithers’ candidacy is contingent upon their participation. Thus, there is no constitutional infraction. There would be a constitutional infraction if each were required to engage in this forum in order to run.
3. Abortion — is not a political issue or even a constitutional one. It’s a personal issue. If these two candidates were women who were faced with this question, then maybe — just maybe I would hear what they have to say. This does not mean that I would be a Hil proponent. I favor Diane Feinstein far, far better!
53. Deana | 08.16.08
Obama sure had a tough time of it, didn’t he? So many uh’s, it was pathetic. He cannot give a straight answer for the life of him. Can you just imagine him as POTUS? I can’t. I’m voting for McCain. At least he can answer simple questions without second-guessing himself. It was very painful to watch Obama struggle through this!
54. Joe | 08.16.08
Does John McCain know anything besides war? In almost every interview, speech, political ad, campaign tour he always talks about WAR!!! I want to know if thats all he knows. As a independent voter, I am sick of hearing McCain bang the war drum all the time.
55. Vickie Parker | 08.16.08
McCain did a wonderful job and is much more believeable than Obama. McCain has the experience needed to be President that is very lacking in Obama. I would rest much easier with McCain in the White House mainly because I feel he is more qualified to protect our nation against all evil world wide. Obama is already so worried about offending others that he would not wear the U.S. flag pin until pushed to do so or worried about offending others by saying the Pledge. I do not want a President who is afraid to offend others. More than half the world needs offending because they are wrong. I appreciate a President who stands up for our country no matter what. McCain is decisive and prepared to lead not be coached as to what to say and do by others like Obama.
56. Bulldog | 08.16.08
Reading after reading through all of the above posts — all I can say is “wow.” I just wonder, in awe, about how many of you actually learned something in your government and civics courses through your secondary and post secondary education?
Keep posting people, so I can now teach those under my tutelage about the common misconceptions about who fled to the Americas and why the fled here (not just avoiding persecution but so that they could practice Puritanical Christianity — as they believed European culture was far too liberal!) Moreover, it is imperative to know exactly who wrote the Constitution — all the players and the bargains they made to get a Constitution passed — let me remind you that not ALL delegates signed the Constitution, what the Constitution espouses, and moreover the rationale behind the psychological factors, which led up to its inception.
People — ignorance is not a virtue. Go ask a Political Science professor or Government teacher if you can sit in on their classes! Just please — don’t offer to grade papers to earn your keep!
57. shortstop | 08.16.08
obviously McCain knows more than just war - didn’t you hear him talk about adopting a daughter from Mother Theresa’s orphanage? guess you missed that
58. Charles | 08.16.08
After watching the candidates’ responses to Pastor Warren’s questions, I am greatly impressed with McCain’s thoughtful and circumspect answers. There was no indecisiveness, no crafting of calculated answers as I saw in Obama. We need a president who does not have to consult his advisors to see what his convictions are. We need a president who has suffered the worst that life can offer and survived victoriously, who has known both failure and redemption. Most of all, we need a president who is strong and unyielding on the issues that are the heart and soul of the moral and spiritual fabric that has made our young nation the ackknowledged leader of the free world. We need McCain.
59. A Mile in Another’s Shoes | 08.16.08
Obama’s answer regarding empathy was inspiring. Maybe if we all could “walk a mile in another’s shoes”, we would not be so quick to assume that all issues are so “black and white.” I had an abortion 16 years ago. It was without question the most difficult decision I have ever had to make and I live with the pain and guilt of that decision every day of my life. However, I have no doubt that if I had not had access to a safe and legal abortion, I would not be alive today. It is the only time in my life when I have contemplated suicide. Incidentally, not that it will matter to most of you; I was a virgin at the time and was the victim of rape. I was raised Catholic so it was the most painful decision of my life but if I had the chance to go back and do it all over again, I would make the same decision every time. BTW - I know that there are many rape victims who bravely make the decision to keep their child or give it up for adoption and I respect that decision more than I can express. For me though . . . I could not live with the shame or the pain of my situation. I think that the “moral majority” often paints abortion as a very “black and white” issue. You have no idea the pain I feel when I see postings on sites like this painting me as a murderer . . . posted probably by a man or a person who has no idea of the anguish of an unwanted pregnancy. It often feels as though I am being raped all over again. My hands shake and my stomach turns as I write this. Perhaps I am a murderer but I believe that God would prefer that you pray for me rather than judge me. Please listen to Barack Obama . . . try practicing some empathy and compassion. If you are pro-life, do what you can to support and encourage women who are faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Maybe this way, we can reduce the number of abortions without being cruel and judgmental.
60. Fire | 08.16.08
Obama answered his questions just like a good Socialist …or some say Marist. Like his mama and wife taught him!
62. mark | 08.16.08
Rick Warren really missed the boat not running McCain’s Christmas in Viet Nam COMMERCIAL while he retold this stump antecdote…oh well, maybe that might have looked BIASED and REHEARSED.
Pay no attention to the man with the questions ahead of time, behind the curtain..uh… duh..did we do the Supreme Court part yet?
WHAT A FARCE, posing as FAITH.
McCain’s faith is summarised in DRILL DRILL DRILL off shore…at the Church of EXXON.
63. mark | 08.16.08
WHERE was the follow up question about McCain’s first marriage?
Ya know the part where the wife who worked 5 years for his release from North Viet Nam is TOSSED after she was disabled in a near fatal car crash, McCain also dumped his 2 adopted sons and daughter, when he chased the skirt of his blonde 15yr younger pillionaire. Lets be all inspired by the Bamgaldesh daughter being adopted, and say NOTHING about 2 adopted sons he DUMPED.
Nancy Reagan never forgot how LOUSEY McCain disrespected his wife, like getting his second marriage license a MONTH before his divorce is finalised.
64. mark | 08.17.08
Tonight did more to damage American’s view ao faith-based ANYTHING being impartial.
Why don’t you RAISE new AIDS cases another 40% with some more abstinence-only LIES.
btw, I know New Orleans, and Katrina upclose and personal…I wouldn’t be bragging about how sucessful all your “good works” were.
Bought and Sold by Republicans for Republicans
65. mark | 08.17.08
loved, loved, Loved, Closet case Lindsey Graham sitting next to Cindy the pillionaire.
he must have really appreciated his old buddy denying his equal Rights.
66. Bill | 08.17.08
Ya know what… I’m so sick of the “haters” that wind up on these message boards. How do some of you people go through life complaining and full of hate all the time? That’s so sad.
Like it or not, a lot of Americans find importance in faith and church. If you’re not one of those people — that’s your business… but, quit griping because we want to talk about something that matters to us.
I thought it was an excellent forum, while true it wasn’t really a debate. I learned more from this event than I learned from ALL the other debates combined about these two guys.
As for McCain… pull your head out of the sand if you think the guy talked about war the whole time. What show were you watching? Fact is many of you are living in a fantasy world that think that we can all just hold hands and bake cookies for our enemies and all will be swell. If that’s how ya feel, by all means… vote for Obama.
67. mark | 08.17.08
Rick Warren’s bragging about ALL he did in New Orleans and his Marine’s catch phrase “first ones in last ones out”…just made me want to spew.
I know NOLA, I know having 8 evacuees in our home near Baton Rouge, I also know the 2 nearly Concentration CAMPS of FEMA trailors in Baker LA.
Rick,
honey, if you’ve seen NOLA 3 years after, NO ONE ought to be bragging about how much they did.
68. mark | 08.17.08
The MSNBC post forum commentary was especially UNBIASED with Tony Perkins (who bought David Duke’s KKK mailing list) and Pat Buchanan (who even scared republicans with his Convention speech about Culture warriors.)
hey MSNBC, was Fred Phelps too busy tonight to be on the panel?
69. Dan | 08.17.08
ps to craig Just keep your head buried in those scriptures - no need to let the facts confuse you. Oh, and concerning voting, someone’s got to cancel out yours since you’ll no doubt be voting for the Mcsame McCrap. Of course, your vote and every other one for McFlippityflopper will be cancelled out several times over when Obama trounces him in a landslide victory. Then we can finally begin to undo the terrible damage perpetrated by Dick and his Bush.
70. mark | 08.17.08
Was anything McCain answered tonight, something we can’t TIVO from footage of his debates, stump speeches and commercials…..anything?
fill in the blank
I will chase Osama bin laden to the very_____ of hell
my friends, my friends, my _______
marriage is a union between _____ man and _____ woman
I could have done McCain’s answers in my sleep
71. Dan | 08.17.08
Right on Mark. Of course, we could also find him giving the opposite answers to a lot of questions - just dig through the archives a little.
72. Dan | 08.17.08
Right on Mark. Of course, you could probably also find him giving the exact opposite answers as well if you go back through the archives a bit.
73. Brett | 08.17.08
Debate Question; When do rights begin for a child?
McCain, “At conception”.
Obama, “I’m not paid enough to answer that question”.
Now that Clinton is back in the roll-call vote at the DNC, pehaps we can get back to the serious business of electing the best of the worst candidates. Otherwise, the election could be won by a man that removed his former challengers from the ballot to gain his first political seat, without a challenge. And was the only human to vote to ensure the death of human children that miraculously escape the abortionist’s scalpel, forceps, and saline.
74. Priscilla Schmidt | 08.17.08
The teacher who wrote about ignorant voters was right on. As an English teacher, I’d like to add that proofreading before you click “submit” is a sign of intelligence and education.
As an Evangelical, I was touched by the comments from the woman who had an abortion. I’d like to recommend a book called “Atonement Child” by Francine Rivers. This novel is the story of a college student who is pregnant because of rape; it’s a wonderfully clear, compassionate examination of Evangelical beliefs with regard to abortion and the Church’s responsibility to care for others. It will be an eye-opener to those of you who are convinced there are no intelligent Christians.
75. john | 08.17.08
I bet all those critics of this forum which is aimed at Christians and ended up being broader than that, never raised any opposition to the role of Christians in the civil rights movement or condemn the role of christians in ending slavery. They never raised any opposition to candidates speaking to asian, black, muslim, hispanic organizations or multicultural organizations or jewish organizations. When the two candidates speak to the Christian majority it is something to be ashamed of? It is something that the USA should be embarrassed by other more secular western countries? Europe is far less tolerant of non whites, of ethnic and religious minorities than America. Look at the prosperity of America’s muslims compared to Europe’s. Europe is a dying culture, ashamed of their Christian heritage and refusing to reproduce another generation to replace itself. Do i care what a dying culture believes? NO, they think they know more when they actually know less.
76. James Hebert | 08.17.08
Good format except:
Audience participation should not have been allowed except possibly at the end of time for each participant. The fact that it was allowed suggested audience approval/disapproval on a particular point wnich, does not add to the understanding and basis for a position the participants take.
The ability to understand the thought process and rationale behind a candidates chosen position is as important in the election process as is the position itself.
Maybe the audience should have been a viewing audience only. If this were the case and we could exclude the press from offering their OPINION then Americans may again learn the art of “thinking for themselves” and not acting as sheep.
It also appeared to me (maybe I missed the disclosure) that the candidates had been given the questions. If this was not disclosed then, I think it was a mistake. Being the cynic I am, I would prefer the “cold turkey” approach.
After all isn’t that the case in the real world of a president?
77. Bulldog | 08.17.08
Priscilla Schmidt,
In the event that you’re referring to my post then please read the following — if not, please disregard.
To begin, I did not refer to anyone as being an ignorant voter. In the event you cannot infer the discipline that I teach, I would like you to know that I teach ALL of the social sciences; particularly, Government and United States history. I would not dare to be presumptuous enough to state that ALL of the posters of this forum actually vote. However, you can infer that I believe many of them to be ignorant, indeed.
Lastly, since this is an informal blog, I did not see it necessary to draft several re-writes and revisions in order to make my point clear. This is a discussion forum, not a thesis. I can only assume that you teach your pupils to avoid writing similarly to the manner in which they speak. On this blog and many others, it is vital to write the way that one speaks to communicate the way one would do so normal conversation. In order to uphold ideological integrity people feel comfortable with the anonymity of this forum because many do not feel comfortable to speak of their ideologies in their social circles. Thus, tolerance is recommended so that ideas can flow without fear of punishment. The instance that an English teacher undermines ideas for stringent guidelines of language rules, is where she undermines literacy because ideas and opinions lead to literacy. Simply put, there would not be one without the other. Moreover, you begin with ideas to strengthen literacy to engage the mind. I will not now or ever, sit on pins and needles revising a post so that I don’t offend an English teacher’s affliction of the “red pen syndrome” before I click submit. By the way — I am certain you will notify us when the MLA or APA cornered the market on a blog. Until then…
Lighten up — this is an informal, anonymous blog that fosters the ability for like minded thinkers and indepenedent thinkers with diverging views to vent their opinions when so many do not feel comfortable enough to do so in their social circles. The discourse and rhetoric is healthy — typos and all!
78. helm | 08.17.08
You all should be ashamed somewhat. Pretending to be independent knowing you have made your choice already. Government is not the problem. We are the problem. We are the most selfish people thinking our voice matters. You sit here and surf message boards complaining about economics. You banter while talking about moral behavior. We all need to look in the mirror and worry about ourselves. A little faith would not hurt anybody.
79. Chris | 08.17.08
Sounds like everybody saw what they wanted to see. If you were for McCain before, like myself, you thought he did great. If you were for Obama, you thought he did great. I wonder if anybody changed their minds after seeing what they had to say. Anyone?
80. Chris | 08.17.08
Along the same lines of what Priscilla was saying about intelligent Christians, I would like to suggest that some of you step foot in a church once in a while. There are doctors, engineers, scientists who all believe in God, if you can imagine! Before I was saved, I used to think Christians were backwards individuals and weak, but now I know better.
81. Laura | 08.17.08
I hardly see how this is a religious test - give me a break.
If you don’t like it because a “pastor” is the moderator for a forum then don’t watch it. But they are not being required to pass some kind of religious test in order to be president.
Separation of church and state is to keep from having a state sanctioned church allowing people the freedom to worship as they saw fit.
82. Laura | 08.17.08
So Mark,
Uh, by the way, the “safe sex” campaign is a lie since you left that part out. There is no such thing unless you have proof that someone is in a committed relationship with one person and no IV drug use.
83. Casey | 08.18.08
Obama is the one who brought religion into this election. For some reason, he thinks sitting in church for 20 years makes him a Christian. Now, he is pandering for the religious vote. Move on, Obama, move on.
84. Jaycee | 08.18.08
Mark, I am sure you are equally incensed by Obama’s tacit approval of racism and bigotry by attending and supporting the Trinity Church for 20+ years. And by his admitted illegal drug use. And by his continued association with bigots, terrorists and anti-patriots. I know these issues of any potential POTUS are of much more concern than a divorce would be!
85. MARY | 08.19.08
WATCHED THE SHOW AND BOTH CANDIDATES WERE ASKED THE EXACT SAME QUESTIONS AND WARREN DIDNT INTERUPT WITH YEAH BUTS… OR WITH ADGENDA DRIVEN QUESTIONS…IT WAS VERY FAIR AND THE DISCUSSION AND ANSWERS GAVE THE VIEWER THE ABILITY TO DECIDE FOR SELF. JOHN MCCAIN RAN AWAY WITH IT, THATS MY OPINION ANYWAY. HE WAS DECISIVE AND HIS CORE VALUES SHOWED BY HIS NOT HEDGING ON THE ISSUE QUESTIONS.TO ME IT WAS LIKE A COLLEGE GRAD DEBATING WITH AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KID. MCCAINS EXPERIENCE CERTAINLY SHOWED AND THE SITUATION HAD TO BE KIND OF EMBARRASSING FOR OBAMA SUPPORTERS.
86. ConcernedEngineer | 08.25.08
http://www.credenda.org/issues/19-1thema.php
1 Corinthians 2:2 - “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”
The public crucifixion of the Son of God does indeed have both private and public ramifications. The public sphere has blood on her hands. We all have blood on our hands, for we are all sinners. But in Christ, we who believe are justified by the blood of Christ - by grace through faith. As it is written, “the just (righteous) shall live by faith.” And “everything that is not of faith is sin.”
Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That is reality.
Psalm 2. Psalm 58.
At best, Rick Warren is unwise. But I am concerned that he is much worse than unwise. I am concerned that he might be a false teacher leading people on the broad path of destruction. At this point, I am not accusing him of false teaching, but merely expressing concern that he might be a false teacher. Let us be on our guard, and compare everything we are taught with that which Scripture teaches. Acts 17:11.
87. ConcernedEngineer | 08.25.08
On abortion:
First there is forgiveness, grace, and compassion to all sinners. 1 John 1:9 states, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.” To those who refuse to confess their sins though, they are by nature objects of God’s holy and just wrath.
88. JJ | 08.28.08
It’s a sad state we live in now. Reagan had it right. “I used to say that politics was the second oldest profession, and I have come to know that it bears a close similarity to the first.”
I don’t think either of these men want this job because they want to lead this great nation. Unfortunately, this election as well as many in the recent past are based on what we as individuals believe to be the lesser of two “evils.”
I’m just glad that my hope is not in either of these men. I’m glad I don’t invest my time and energy in politics. As one “reborn” my life is available to God and I let Him do want He wants. I know from experience He is not a pacifist.
I love Gandalf’s line in the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers as they are in the caves and things look grim. He speaks to Frodo, “We don’t know how much time we have, but what matters is what we do with the time given to us.”
Let’s do this again in four years.
89. Monique | 09.05.08
yes, it is said not to join state and church yet the state has been telling christians how and where they can show their faith (for example…praying in school). Many of the posts state that the candidates’ faith should not come into question…yet why are we using Rick Warren’s faith in correlation to the debate. He is doing nothing wrong…he is just another person asking questions.
I am sick and tired of everybody else having their opinions yet when a christian wants to state their opinion the world feels as though he or she is forcing others to listen to something they don’t want to listen to. Everybody seems to have a right to say something except religious people…why is that?
90. JJ | 09.13.08
I think if we take a long look at Biblical history we know the “why” part of your last question, Monique. The question on my mind remains - How long will it be before ‘we (as Christians)’ have no rights to speak at all in this country? As long as our culture continues on its current path, I may see it in my lifetime, certainly my children.
Yes, the ‘world’ has forced their religion on us for years (ex. evolution in school - a created religion in itself according to Darwin’s own words). We know this will happen time and time again throughout history. It’s already written for us. Guess we never know who’s going to believe it? That’s where we play our part.
91. Jeremy | 09.26.08
After reading these posts, and spending the majority of my life around those who profess to follow Protestant Christian beliefs…I never cease to be amazed at the resilience and effectiveness of organized religion as a form of social engineering and control. I tip my hat to the genius(es) that devised it.
92. Palin-Biden-Debate | 09.29.08
I agree with most, the country is in Dire Need of change. However, I feel that with a country of 300+ million people, we only have 2 lame choices. Thats the really sad part. I wish we could have more choices. Can’t wait to see the Palin-Biden-Debate. I’m sure that one will be good.
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Jimmy Orr has worked in politics for the majority of his professional career working for two U.S. Senators, two Governors and one President. Most recently, Orr served as White House Spokesman and Internet Director for President George W. Bush and Special Advisor to Governor Schwarzenegger for Internet Communications.
David Cook is Washington bureau chief of The Christian Science Monitor and host of the Monitor's newsmaker breakfasts. He was the Monitor's editor from 1994 to 2001. Cook is a graduate of Principia College, served in the U.S. Army, was a Bagehot Fellow at Columbia University, and is a member of the Gridiron Club, Washington's oldest journalistic organization.
1. old mo | 08.16.08
And this is going to be another unbiased television broadcast. Yeah right.