(Jake Turcotte)
McCain throws plumber at Obama in final debate
By Jimmy Orr | 10.16.08
Something interesting happened last night at the third presidential debate: John McCain showed up.
Notably absent from the prior two, McCain was like Sylvester Stallone’s character in the prequel to Rocky 7 when he said, “Paulie, I think I got somethin’ left in the basement.”
McCain had a whole lot left. Like that character from the prequel, he didn’t throw any knockout punches but he fought.
Doom
By the way, that thing we told you about yesterday … you know the George Mason University professor who said, “You are more likely to be killed by a meteor dropping on your head than McCain becoming president.”
We checked - for the sake of humanity. That was just an analogy. Not an actual true law of physics.
No one is annointing McCain “44″ but his performance means there’s a lot less “shoulda, woulda and couldas” from conservatives this morning. Perhaps most viewers, as Monitor colleague Dante Chinni points out, believe Obama won the debate.
Hey Joe
From almost the beginning, McCain was on offense. At first down and everything to go, McCain didn’t throw up a Hail Mary, rather he threw up a “Hey Joe” — as in Joe the plumber.
We told you about Joe the plumber earlier this week (and got tons of angry mail for merely bringing him up.)
He was the guy Barack Obama spoke to last weekend while canvassing a neighborhood outside of Toledo. Joe Wurzelbacher, a self-employed plumber, explained to Obama that he was in a position to buy a business. But if he bought a truck and expanded the business, he wondered if his success would be greeted by a penalty in the form of higher taxes.
Obama to plumber
Obama said he didn’t want to “punish his success.”
He said, “I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody … I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”
This of course, had the right wing of the blogosphere erupting.
Straight Joe talk
McCain tapped into that anger last night by looking at the television screen as if to talk directly to Joe.
“Joe, I want to tell you, I’ll not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for … I’ll keep your taxes low and I’ll provide available and affordable health care for you and your employees,” he said.
“And … I will not stand for a tax increase on small business income,” he continued. “Fifty percent of small business income taxes are paid by small businesses. That’s 16 million jobs in America. And what you [Obama] want to do to Joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.”
McCain didn’t stop there. In fact, as our friend Andy Malcolm at the LA Times notes, Joe came up 26 times last night. Mostly by McCain.
Who’s the moderator?
In fact, when CBS anchor and last night’s moderator Bob Schieffer asked Obama if McCain was correct in his remarks regarding Joe the plumber, McCain answered for him.
“That’s what Joe believes,” McCain said stepping on Obama.
Obama explains
When McCain allowed Obama to speak on the issue, he - not surpringly - had a different recollection of the conversation: “What I essentially said to him was, ‘Five years ago, when you were in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then.’
“And what I want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesn’t yet have money, I want to give them a tax break now. And that requires us to make some important choices.”
“Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy,” he continued. “They produce the most jobs.”
Not done
McCain wasn’t done. In his mind the issue of spreading the wealth around was “class warfare.” McCain questioned the idea of raising taxes now in light of the current economic situation.
“Why would you want to increase anybody’s taxes right now?” McCain asked. “Why would you want to do that, anyone, anyone in America, when we have such a tough time, when these small business people, like Joe the plumber, are going to create jobs, unless you take that money from him and spread the wealth around.”
Tax cuts for most
Obama countered that under his plan he would cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans. “Now, it is true that my friend and supporter, Warren Buffett, for example, could afford to pay a little more in taxes in order…”
Then McCain decided to play the role of moderator by injecting, “We’re talking about Joe the plumber…”
To which Obama continued, “…in order to give additional tax cuts to Joe the plumber before he was at the point where he could make $250,000.”
Obama mentioned Exxon Mobil as a company that could afford to pay more taxes. Obama said the oil giant made record profits of more than $12 billion over the past few quarters.
“So, look, nobody likes taxes,” Obama said. “I would prefer that none of us had to pay taxes, including myself. But ultimately, we’ve got to pay for the core investments that make this economy strong and somebody’s got to do it.”
McCain then challenged Obama saying, “Nobody likes taxes. Let’s not raise anybody’s taxes. OK?”
Obama didn’t take the bait responding with, “Well, I don’t mind paying a little more.”
Joe’s health care
Joe the plumber would not go away. On Joe the plumber and health care, McCain charged under Obama’s plan if Joe didn’t “adopt the health care plan that Senator Obama mandates, he’s going to fine you.”
Not so, said Obama.
“I exempt small businesses from the requirement for large businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees, but are not doing it.
“I exempt small businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But large businesses that can afford it, we’ve got a choice. Either they provide health insurance to their employees or somebody has to.”
A sarcastic McCain replied, “Now, Joe, you’re rich, congratulations, and you will then fall into the category where you’ll have to pay a fine if you don’t provide health insurance that Senator Obama mandates, not the kind that you think is best for your family, your children, your employees, but the kind that he mandates for you.”
Morning Joe
What’s Joe the plumber think? He toured the morning shows today just like a candidate.
Although he won’t say who he’s voting for, you just might be able to guess after discussing Obama’s tax plan with ABC’s Diane Sawyer.
“Just because you work a little harder, to have more money taken from you — that’s scary,” Wurzelbacher said. “Why should they be penalized for being successful? … That’s wrong. … Obama wants to take that basic right and penalize me for it. That’s a very socialistic view.”
Katie’s back
How did this unknown plumber from Ohio get to be the centerpiece of the debate anyway? He discussed the whole thing with Katie Couric last night. You can read the whole transcript here. In a nutshell, he thought his neighbors were too soft on the Democratic nominee.
<< Can McCain win tonight? Three things he must do | Main“Obama came to my neighborhood and my son and I were outside tossing the football, and all of a sudden he showed up, and there went our football tossing for a while. And, you know, neighbors were outside asking him questions, and I didn’t think they were asking him tough enough questions, so I thought, you know, I’ll go over there. You know, I’ve always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question of — for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance … almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.”
Comments
2. ds | 10.16.08
The reason it’s so hard for Joe the Plumber to start a business and make money for himself:
He’s an idiot. Plain and simple.
Joe, the world needs ditch diggers too. If you cant afford to get a van, you should vote for Obama because he will cut your taxes. If you can’t afford a van, you dont make 250K a year. My guess…you vote McCain because he’s white. Am I right or am I right?
3. Brian | 10.16.08
McCain made Obama look foolish, but too little too late? I hope not. God help this country is Obama takes office.
4. Phil | 10.16.08
Can Mc Cain start a conversation without starting it with a lie?
Jo the plumber said he never met McCain.
5. FindTheTruth | 10.16.08
If you want to know the real John McCain, the reckless, dishonest, womanizer, you should Google the phrase “Make-believe maverick” and read the fact-based article about McCain’s life and career.
He was in Viet Nam, yes. A hero? Certainly not… more of a weasel… just ask his fellow POWs. When the VC’s found out he was related to a general, well, just read the “Make-believe maverick” article. McCain hasn’t server this country, ever. He serves only himself.
How does a liar of this magnitude even get to be running for president? McCain only sees the presidency as a “prize” that he feels he needs to attain to out-do his daddy and his grampa who were both military generals. He doesn’t care about anyone else in this country.
He even made mention of the “long line of McCains” at the end of the debate. Hopefully, he won’t be able to ride his daddy and grampa’s coat tails all the way into the White House. And if he does, shame on us… read the article and choose the most qualified candidate.
6. gbc | 10.16.08
“…almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr”
racist much Joe?
My guess is that your mind was made up when you saw the color of Obama’s skin.
Thanks sir, but I won’t be calling for your plumbing services anytime soon.
7. ec kidder | 10.16.08
“almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr?” Is this the Step ‘n Fetchit school of commentary? I guy gets and answer he doesn’t like — or, in this case completely misinterprets — and he resorts to a veiled racist dig. I don’t think our Joe the plumber was going to accept anything Obama might have said. Hi smind wa smade up from the get-go.
8. bill | 10.16.08
He calls that a tap dance? Good lord, nothing short of abject capitulation would make him happy, then. So we can’t tax the wealthy, and we shouldn’t tax the poor, but we’ve got to handle this deficit, improve the country’s infrastructure…. how?
Ayn Rand would be proud, but in the real world, not even close.
9. ed marrapese | 10.16.08
McCain was a Pol at its worst last night, he talks about Joe the plumber. Plumber make more money then teachers, firemen, police. What McCain never makes clear his ability to lead. Obama shows the American public a clear idea and leadership ability. I am a former republican state represtentative and I believe Obama will be a better leader then McCain.
12. Mike N. | 10.16.08
Jimmy,
Let me guess! You are a Obama supporter. See, the problem I have have is that no one can report the news without interjecting their own views on the subject. Re-read your work and tell me that you reported both sides without favoring one side more. I thought reporting was supposed to be objective not subjective.
Mike N.
13. Sam | 10.16.08
did you hear about the lady suing mccain and the campaign? she is suing them because her heart hurts and she is worried about Obamas life. what a joke and a waste of our court room time.the smart Dems are coming out in hand fulls now.I hope they slap her with the stupid award.If it go’s to court i guess the rep should sue because Obama said to his people if the reps don’t agree with you argue with them and get in their face. We could get hurt because of that statement.i worry about my life now and it hurts my heart.
14. Devin | 10.16.08
Typical of the rich to forget where they came from. Not everyone can pick themselves up by their bootstraps and make it rich. Someone helps them on their journey but then they get stubborn and forget about all the little people that make up this larger company.
15. Nocroman | 10.16.08
In this coutry we have a minimum wage law. It say employers must pay X amount of money for an hours work. The law does not say X amount of dollars and medical insurance for each hour worked. Negotiating the terms of your contract is up to the individual if they require medical insurance. There are no laws on the books mandating employers to provide medical insurance for their employee’s. Mr. Obama had better go back and rfeview the laws of this nation.
Employers provide medical to employee’s who are valuble assets to the welfare of their corporation. NO employers should ever be required to pay for medical for any other person than their own family members. Medical insurance was a bonus given to employee’s, NOT a right.
16. Cheryl | 10.16.08
We Want Our Government Back
Right now the government is in the hands of people who truly have NO interest in what WE THE PEOPLE want. You say and do anything to get a vote – both sides. Decisions are not made on sound judgment. They are made based on how you feel your constituency will respond. We are at the mercy of the government. They should be at the mercy of us. We have slowly but surely, over the course of time, given up power to people who are “career politicians”, not statesmen. They are not our representatives. They are people who have a paid job in Washington, or even locally for that matter. You get paid to pander to a select group of people who keep you in your job. That is demonstrated every day during an election cycle by changing positions as often as the wind blows. It’s all a game and we are the pawns in your game. I
18. Wil Dawson | 10.16.08
I find it difficult to believe that Joe is still working 10-12 hours a day if he’s earning $250,000 a year. And if he’s not earning that much annually, then this is just another misdirection (if not another outright lie) by the McCain campaign. Why can’t reasonable people cogently discuss the costs and benefits of trickle down economic theories versus an effort to empower the individual consumer/wage earner without resorting to these “Straw Man” tactics?
20. Rayce Boucher | 10.16.08
Wait — Did McCain really say “Fifty percent of small business income taxes are paid by small businesses?”
21. Karl Moyers | 10.16.08
I would really like to see the full blown financial statements of the business Joe wants to buy. Then compare the effects of Obama and McCain Plans and really see the hard data on this.
The real questions is why should anybody who makes more than $125,000 a year get a free ride on taxes. Everyone should pay their 7.5% for medicare and social security regardless of income. This would also include golden parachute, bonuses.
22. Abby | 10.16.08
I think that mccain should not have been interpupting at all durring this debate, and also, mccane should have been more conciderate to obama than he was. Even though i don’t like either of them, mccan should aghve been better.
23. Meee | 10.16.08
I think both candidates need to stop fooling around…
take things seriously and run a clean campaign
24. DaddyWarbucks | 10.16.08
Hello, is this thing on. I certainly hope I can keep my gun and dwindling pile of paper money regardless of who wins. Keep America Stupid.
25. Vadim | 10.16.08
Well, Joe the Plumber, we humans all have basic needs for shelter, food and warmth. All of those basic needs cost about the same (the basic, not “upscale” variants). If you make more money, like the $250K a year, you will have much more left for your other non-basic needs/wants/pursuits than an “average Joe” ($250K a year is way, way above average). Since those discretionary “leftovers” are not as absolutely important to you and your family survival, you may as well allow the government to “trim that fat” a bit in order for less privileged/hard working/less able individuals and families to simply survive. That’s the premise of the tax system, any tax system, to redistribute wealth to where it is needed / counts most, like letting other folks survive. Once the basic needs are met, once can always afford his “fat to be trimmed a bit”. I hope you understand now.
26. truthspeaker | 10.16.08
I’m getting tired of this Joe the Plumber distortion and its obvious that posters don’t understand business taxes. Business taxes are levied on net income not gross income. This means that Joe the Plumber is making > $250k after he’s paid all of his workers wages and his business expenses, i.e. he’s paying a bunch of mexicans minimum wage with no benefits and keeping the profits for himself. So yeah, he can pay more taxes.
28. NC Horse Trainer | 10.16.08
Nocroman, I’m self-employed and cannot afford $400 a month for health insurance, and I’m healthy. Health care is not a bonus for good employees! It’s a right all Americans deserve.
29. RF | 10.16.08
I am totally amazed at the number of people who are absolutely content for their preseidents only quality lying in a good speech performance and a lot of “I will give you everything” phrases without any details of how this would work.
Are people seriously ignorant enough to belive that taxing the rich does not ask for a counter of ‘then we ask more for our serives’, and do people seriously believe that promising all kinds of free money ( and a trillion dollars is a ton of money) without it having to come from somewhere?
And finally, do people not check facts when they simply believe everything is Bush’s fault (and I truly do not like Bush, BTW)? The Bank desaster is clearly a Clinton era problem (oh, how much did Obama make in support money on that one?)
30. Jhonny | 10.16.08
This has nothing to do with middle class- this is a raise of taxes on small businesses that make more then $250,000 a year. No one is calling them middle class.
My big question would have been this: “When you raise taxes on companies, how will they pay for those raised taxes Mr. Obama? Will they be “patriotic” and eat the money lost or will they just raise their prices- therefore making everything we buy cost more?”
Or maybe “Mr. Obama, you say you are not going to lower taxes on 95% of Americans. How is that possible when only 35% of Americans actually pay income tax?”
31. Al | 10.16.08
McCain won the debate, no question…..unless, of course, you’re 58% of Americans polled after the debate who felt that Obama won. Bottom line? Nothing McCain does will change the minds of Independents. Obama is simply “more likeable” than McCain, and when you don’t know either candidate and neither one will give you an honest answer about issues, you’re stuck voting for the most likeable.
Obama WILL win the election….unfortunately. This is the beginning of socialism for this country. Obama is pretty far left of center in his party. With him, Pelosi, and Reid running the country, I’m thinking of finding another home.
32. Franklin | 10.16.08
Wow… Joe the Plumber is so afraid of $900 in taxes that he’s willing to stop working hard?
That’s what all this flimflam from the McCain campaign is about. Joe said he couldn’t purchase a business that made between $250,000 to $280,000 a year because Obama would tax him more. Now, since Obama only taxes the amount ABOVE $250,000, we’re talking about 3% of (at best) $30,000 = or $900 for those that don’t want to do the math.
Unfortunately, more than $900 worth of ink was wasted this morning on this obvious McCain schill because he’s the simplest thing (and only Pro-McCain) thing to write about the debate.
I’m sorry, but I really can’t feel bad for someone making more than $250,000 a year who throws tantrums over $900. Penny wise and pound foolish.
33. Rex | 10.16.08
Almost as good as Sammy Davis? Racist?
Why do you people think every thing is racist?
Sammy Davis was one of the greatest dancers that ever lived.
So when the man uses him in an example the first thing that comes to your mind is that he was black, not that he was a great dancer.
34. LOL | 10.16.08
Drudge Report is reporting that Joe the Plumber isn’t registered to vote!
(Caution: have not yet seen confirmation, but if it’s true, that’s high hilarity)
35. Please, People | 10.16.08
@Independent in FL
Actually, it was sickening to hear John McCain talk about everything Obama is NOT going to do and little about what McCain IS going to do.
Frankly, I don’t care about Joe the Plumber, Joe Six Pack, or Joe Blow. I’m sick to the point of nausea from this “homey” B.S. insulting the majority of the American population with the PTA-meeting type speeches and the Wal-Mart mentality. God help this country if the majority relates to this insipid rhetoric.
36. jy2008 | 10.16.08
Spreading wealth is nothing new. It has been practiced somewhere else.
Spreading wealth is neither bad nor good. It can not go extreme either way.
If more middle-class become poor, Obama will win.
If more poors become middle-class, McCain will win.
Sounds ridiculous?
Keep in mind that it is all about individual or group interest.
Many great ones have come and gone. No one has ever changed such mind.
So following God rather than being God.
Well, in fast-paced growing global economy today,
Americans should be given more choices.
Immigration never means one-way.
37. Tiiff | 10.16.08
you know just because you make $2500.000 doesn’t mean you have that in the bank.I know people who made that much but own a shop and they put most of it back into paying employees and materials, insurance to cover your work, taxes. rent of building, car insurance, insurance for health care,electricity, water,phone bill,lawyer,tax people, plus the normal things for the family ( rent,school,food,ext) so don’t think just because you can claim you made that much means your rich unless you work for someone else.so yes sometimes when you just make $250,000 you are still middle class.
38. concerned | 10.16.08
That’s one thing that gets annoying from the Obama supporters. Every time you disagree they ask you if your racist. Sorry, I vote on facts and not color. Maybe you should stop throwing the racist card in my face anytime I don’t see eye to eye with his policies.
39. Curious | 10.16.08
So McCain believes that “Fifty percent of small business income taxes are paid by small businesses.” A very Bush-esq comment, almost a Quayle-esq comment even. So, does McCain believe that one hundred percent of small business are small or is only fifty percent of small businesses small?
40. Bri | 10.16.08
““…almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr”
racist much Joe?”
Ummm… Not sure that was a racist comment. Sammy Davis Jr. was an outstanding dancer and was inducted into the Tap Dance Hall of Fame in 2005 (http://www.atdf.org/awards/davisjr.html). Sounds like a perfectly reasonable analogy to me
41. ed | 10.16.08
FindTheTruth Not Generals, the Navy has Admirals, but then I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference. How was Canada?
42. op arms | 10.16.08
stock market value reflects future conditions and as obama polls rise, stock prices drop. This drop is not a reflection of past policy but of future obama policy
you need to get this message out & stop the OBS that market is reflection on Bush.. it is always a forward looking indicator
43. Atuhalpa | 10.16.08
Hmmmm……Independant in florida, you seem to have bought Big Brother’s “The world changed on 9/11, it’s much more dangerous out there now” line of fear mongering. Go educate yourself. If danger equates to how many people die violent deaths, 2001 to 2008 has got nothing on the WW1/Spanish flu era, nor the WW2 era. And by the way more innocent people have died violent deaths at the hands of US soldiers and blackwater in Iraq and Afghanistan than all the al qaida bombing and murders combined. If this is deemed a post that violates the terms of service, then I appologize to all, and the moderators have my permission to edit it as they see fit, but I believe I have a valid point
44. David | 10.16.08
Obama lied about his involvement with ACORN. He’s also stalling on Berg vs. Obama in Pennsylvania by not producing the documents asked for in the case. Obviously he is hiding the fact that he is not a natural born citizen of the US and therfore not qualified to run for president. That’s it pure and simple!
45. Belfry | 10.16.08
Sounds like Joe would rather pass his taxes onto his children. And if we don’t get socialized healthcare, **** have dwindling customers who can afford his service.
46. Kolinski | 10.16.08
-Independent in FL- you are the one that just doesn’t get it.
You say that Obama was laughing off serious questions…what debate were you watching? While Obama was trying to talk about the issues and what his plans are going to be, McCain was attacking him on non-issue topics just to get ignorant people like you up in arms. Where were McCain’s plans? Other than rhetoric about being able to balance the budget in 4 years? We don’t need some grumpy old man in office who has a notorious temper (which the public hasn’t truly seen yet)…now THAT is dangerous. Obama can turn this country’s image around and drastically decrease the dangers we’re currently in if the ignorant un-educated class would stop being so gullible and smarten up.
47. Maureen | 10.16.08
It is gratifying to know that the old adage still applies: Give him enough rope and he will hang himself. Thanks Joe W., for giving so many interviews. Thanks John, for putting Joe Plumber, along with your other friend Joe Six-Pack, in the spotlight!We always need informed commentary from your advisers, especially with all the issues facing us this election.
48. Brian | 10.16.08
I’m an Obama supporter, but you people are insane. Just because he refers to Obama tap-dancing like Sammy Davis Jr. he’s a racist pig? I would have said the same thing, for Sammy Davis Jr. is the only person I know of that can tap dance. This election has to focus on issues, not on race, and shame on you for trying to guilt people into voting for Obama. Let them decide on their own.
49. truthseeker | 10.16.08
Hey FindTheTruth, McCain’s father was an admiral, not a general. There is a difference. Perhaps your lack of understanding of military rank structure is not the only thing you are incorrect about.
50. Mark Davis | 10.16.08
It may be to late for Obama’s scalpel. The end of the former Soviet Union required an axe, which allowed the new Russian Federation to now enjoy a free market economy (Russian style) with a flat tax of 13 percent, which is well within the confines of the Laffer curve Reagan endorsed and wanted for us.
Besides, I am not in favor of turning brain surgery over to the newest partner of the Ayers, Rezko, Wright and Obama Spay and Neuter clinic.
51. steve | 10.16.08
i thought Obma laughing at Mccain when he disagreed was very rude.it made him look like the spoiled kid he really is.
52. John Randolph | 10.16.08
To DS who wrote:
“The reason it’s so hard for Joe the Plumber to start a business and make money for himself: He’s an idiot. Plain and simple.
Joe, the world needs ditch diggers too. If you cant afford to get a van, you should vote for Obama because he will cut your taxes. If you can’t afford a van, you dont make 250K a year. My guess…you vote McCain because he’s white. Am I right or am I right?”
You couldn’t be more wrong, uneducated or uninformed. Joe can obviously afford to buy a small business, and wants to protect and grow that business. He doesn’t want a president who will penalize him for his success and reward otehrs who aren;t as self-sufficient. And it has absolutely nothing to do with race; Obama is an elitist who has never walked a foot in Joe’s shoes.
53. Matt | 10.16.08
“Just because you work a little harder, to have more money taken from you — that’s scary,”
Joe the plumber thinks that everyone who isn’t in a position to buy their own business just needs to “work a little harder”? This sounds just as out of touch as John McCain. Just because someone’s company went under and they got laid off, or they’re working hard but the business just isn’t there, doesn’t mean that if they just “worked a little harder” they’d suddenly be in great shape.
This kind of view is ignorant and selfish.
55. jr | 10.16.08
that he did, Rayce… that he did. He’s a mathematical genius. And the repubs what this man to oversee our economy.
56. Raleigh | 10.16.08
HEY AL!
“This is the beginning of socialism for this country. Obama is pretty far left of center in his party.”
And the government bail out of certain banks and financial giants is what? Capitalism? And the federal mandate of a minimum wage is what? The government NOT being involved with the business sector. Hey, what President pioneered the bail out? Oh yea, a republican.
We haven’t been truly capitalist for DECADES so before you get all pissy about socialism, realize that we have been dabbling with it for a while. Another example would be government subsidization of agricultural markets. We just don’t call it socialism because that is such a horribly dirty word in the minds of most Americans (thanks to the cold war).
So please, before you start claiming “It’s the start of socialism!!!!” do a little background research… maybe read some history books.
57. Jon | 10.16.08
The world is such a scary and dangerous place!! Lets go to war with Iran that will make me feel warm and fuzzy.
58. Bill | 10.16.08
The average Plumber with 20yrs experiance in this country makes about $60,000 a year.Where is Joe the plumber working to make $250,000? John McCain maybe use to paying an expensive plumber,after all he has been in on the military bugets for years,and taxpayers have paid $1,500. for screwdrivers,so I guess its not that unusual after all Huh?
60. mike | 10.16.08
Nocroman has a very short-term view of our country’s health care system. The reason the bulk of health care insurance is provided by employers is because over 50 years ago, after the success of Social Security, there was a major movement to implement a similar program for nationalized health insurance. Surprised?
However, the doctors (American Medical Association) and major insurers (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) were strongly opposed. The argued that an equitable and cost-effective system could be provided through employers. Congress agreed with them and it worked well until the past 20-30 years or so, when we became less competitive in our industries and our economy began to falter.
As health care costs escalated and employers’ profits began to shrink, health care became a bottom-line issue, rising to the crisis we now face. Not one health consumer here today voted for the employer-based health care “system” that we’re saddled with today. Not one industry, except medical and insurance, welcomes it. In fact, health care costs is one of several reasons our industries have lost their financial edge internationally.
We must get beyond the issue of “socialized medicine” and take the burden off of our businesses and make it a societal responsibility. We all require health care yet few want to accept its financial responsibility. The crisis is here and it’s not going away until we waken to that fact and act.
61. okierazorbacker | 10.16.08
I’m intrigued by the racist comments made by Obamaites here. I’m a longtime McCain supporter, and when I read Joe’s remarks about Sammy Davis Jr. it never dawned on me that there was that kind of similarity between he and Obama. Joe’s remark was simply about tap dancing, and that’s all I read into it, yet you Obamaites draw a connection based on the color of their skin. That’s just sad.
John McCain is the closest thing this country has had to Teddy Roosevelt since TR himself. TR was the first president to entertain an African-American at the White House, risking serious political consequences in that day (Booker T. Washington). If you vote for the man whose leadership experience in government is less even than Sarah Palin, you are making a huge mistake.
62. Brian | 10.16.08
Why should anyone get a free ride. Everyone should pay their fair share. I am not wealthy, I am middle class, but I am sick and tired of hearing about how the rich, and corporations should be penalized because they have more. I say drop the whole personal income tax system, and go to a national sales tax for individuals, and charge an income tax on businesses that is a flat rate, then everyone pays their fair share (even people that are not citizens but reap the benefits of living here). As far as this election goes I say use the Richard Pryor vote from Brewsters Millions “none of the above” I have yet to hear anyone talk about how they are going to fix anything, they talk about how bad each other will do, they talk about all of the mistakes of past administrations, but they really don’t define how they are going to fix anything.
63. mglory | 10.16.08
Joe, the plumber is not the only person trying to get his feet wet into the small business world. So far with the Republican policies and politics, the middle class cannot even look into one day owning a business…The electrical, plumbing and carpentry industries making over $250k a year are not reporting employees because they hiring illegal employees from their own culture and would not keep any american in their books so they do not have to report to the IRS and offer health care or union coverage. Example College Point, Queens NY electrical companies. So, Joe who does not have a VAN, who is making middle class salary in his State and probably does not have Health Insurance, would not be tax by Obama taxes or penalized…so Joe you did not ask a tough question, perhaps you don’t understand the financial basics of having a business…you should invest in a business administration course before you invest in your own company.
To Independent in FL | if the comments the opposite party stated are not accurate and it is nothing but an attack to endure harm…why you think that Obama should have done…bit the **** out McCain…that would have been Unpresidential…so get a grip and do not comment if you can not stick to the true.
64. Jill | 10.16.08
I have been a small business owner for 20 years. Businesses pay tax only on NET PROFIT - the amount that remains after paying all wages and other expenses. I would be DELIGHTED if our company had a net profit of $250K a year and I would gladly pay any income tax due! And don’t forget, there are numerous loopholes allowing businesses to essentially “hide” much of their net profit from taxes.
65. Formerly Independent | 10.16.08
Actually Obama was not laughing off serious questions, he was laughing off disgraceful assertions and lies be McCain. Just because McCain kept saying the same lies over and over regarding Obama and his policies did not make McCain’s lies anymore true. The fact that those lies could be repeated with such boldness astounds me. Sometimes the human reaction to lies is to just laugh, while at others might choose to cry.
PS It’s incredibly amazing that McCain is trying to appeal to the Joe Plumber’s and Joe Six Packs of our nation. (aka average Joes with personal incomes under 75k) as if the republican party or big businesses, and persons of wealth they represent give two graps about average Joe. Republicans have always been in the pocket of the financial elite and that’s why there’s historically been fewer Republicans than Democrats. Democrats need to stay organized this time!
66. mglory | 10.16.08
So Steve, what do you think about McCain eye bulging and sound effects when Obama was trying to address the issue…Super Rude.
67. wake up | 10.16.08
…seriously. Sometimes I wonder if there are people out there with a brain. My number one advice for anyone who reads this is to go directly to the source instead making decisions from second hand rhetoric. If you had been doing this you would have heard Joe say himself that he doesn’t make $250,000 a year. He had a valid concern about his possible future. Wake up!
If your into socialism then I would recommend you vote for Obama.
…and one other thing, what does the color of someone’s skin have to do with this election? No one cares that Obama is black and Macain is White. It comes down to who is qualified and ready to lead this country and it’s clearly not Obama.
69. Justin | 10.16.08
Wow! I thought Obama took every single question tossed at him seriously and had well thought out answers in an instant. He didn’t even seem tense. McCain on the other hand looked like he was about to fall out from a heart attack he was so tense. I’d prefer the cool and collective and not mudslinging because he has no point. Cleary Obama is capable of making split second decsions with a steady, level head. We need that, not McCain. Obama is right, in light of current events, we’re going to have to pay more to stablize our economy, deal with it. My only problem with where this is all going is, aren’t these new ideals getting a little too close to a communist’s? Please correct me if I’m wrong, I love insight!
70. mary ann | 10.16.08
I am tired of Joe the plumber. Everybody knows a plumber only knows one thing and that is bad stuff rolls down hill. Joe if you make > 250,000 you need to pay more taxes. Because business gets alot of tax breaks the middle class does not. Stop complaining, you sound like McCain…………..
71. Alexandra | 10.16.08
Joe-the-Plumber (who by the way. is from my home-state and home-area, needs to take a lesson from my brother Gene-the-Plumber, who’s small plumbing company is experiencing a 60% decrease in business. Why? Because Mike-and-Michelle-Middle-Class cannot afford to build a house, buy a house, or even call the plumber. You can “say it ain’t so, Joe” — but reality is: that’s what happens when the middle-class has no money.
72. danielle | 10.16.08
Joe - “Just because you work a little harder, to have more money taken from you — that’s scary,” Are you for real? There are plenty of people out there working as hard as possible, for a lot less than 250K per year. And they will get LESS money taken from them.
And good luck trying to insure your family on that $5000 tax credit.
73. Rick K | 10.16.08
I still strongly believe without any doubt that Obama is a fake. In my mind, McCain won this final debate. I detested the sneery smirk of a fake smile from Obama. If Obama wins, **** destroy this country and will turn it into a socialistic society thus destroying small business and the american way of life.
74. john | 10.16.08
if i work my butt off to make my money then why the heck should i pay joe blow for being lazy? Thats called welfare.maybe all of us that work hard should just stop and do what i guess the normal people do and thats nothing.so we get paid also.by the time we all do that there won’t be no money to spread around or should i say hand out.
75. Chandler | 10.16.08
Quit bringing up the race issue, less people give a damn than you think. I am voting against Obama because he is a socialist. Not because he is black.
76. JWord | 10.16.08
Almost all the people here who obviously support Obama have absolutely no objectivity and, worse, can’t help themselves from personally attacking any one who criticizes Obama, even real-life Joe the plumber (He’s a “racist” because he said Obama was tap-dancing like Sammy Davis, Jr.? Come on and get a life!) and offering some of the most dishonest, insulting comments (see “Find the Truth” for a fine example). That’s the problem with most Democrats. They preach at every one else for “tolerance” of personal beliefs and behavior, except for anyone who disagrees with them.
I am an independent and would consider voting for Obama. However, here are two (but not all) of the main reasons I won’t:
1) If people like some of the folks here are his representatives of “supporters” (which seem to be confirmed from my observations on other cites as well), I don’t want to be included.
2) It does look like Obama will win this election and that the Democrats may also have a super-majority in both houses of Congress. That will mean they can pass ANY law they want to without any possible check. That is seriously undemocratic and dangerous. See what happened in such circumstances after the French Revolution of 1789. In any case, I certainly will NOT be voting for my Democrat Senator this year.
The comments here reflect just how fractured and polarized this country is. Obama, even if he chooses to reach out from his far-left position, will never be able to find compromises necessary to help change that. McCain might have.
77. Bunny | 10.16.08
Barak Obama makes me proud to be an American; a feeling I have not experienced since Bill Clinton was in office.
The thought of John McCain being in the White House (much less Sarah Palin) chills me to the bone. It makes me afraid of the wars they will start, the people who will be hurt by taxes, lack of decent health care ($5000 doesn’t cover me for 6 months!)and the land they will rape to get oil.
It is time for America to learn how to live more simply, within our means and to make changes in the way we use our resources. I believe Barak Obama can help us in this direction. Obama rocks!
78. danielle | 10.16.08
Joe - “Just because you work a little harder, to have more money taken from you — that’s scary,” Are you for real? There are plenty of people out there working as hard as possible, for a lot less than 250K per year. And they will get LESS money taken from them.
And good luck trying to insure your family on that $5000 tax credit.
79. Patrick Philadelphia | 10.16.08
The real winner of this debate was “Joe the plumber”. He got all this FREE publicity! With attenion like this he will probably be making over 250,000.
80. JD | 10.16.08
Socialism is rearing its ugly heas when I hear that by working hard and making a certain amount, the fruits of my labor will be redistributed to those that don’t work as hard. Most small business are S-Corps, where the gross production of the company is counted as earnings to the owner of teh company. “98% of small business generate less than $250,00″ is incorrect. The majority of S corps generate much more than $250,ooo. The company that I worked for for 10 years was a perfect example. The Bush tax cuts for small business allowed us to hire 4 employees as well as fund a healthcare program. This would not have been possible without the Bush tax cuts. 40% of the lower wage earners do not even pay income tax! Please do not be enticed by the promise of a tax cut…it will not happen. Clinton promised the same thing and after 2 months in office, raised taxes!
81. MoosePoo | 10.16.08
Hey Mike N.
You really need to get a clue. This is not reporting. It is Opinion. Opinions are like….you know the the adage. Everyone has at least one.
You may have more of one than the other though.
82. Jenny | 10.16.08
What is wrong with you people?? Joe’s not racist. Seriously, name one more famous tap dancer right off of the top of your head. I certainly can’t, and that’s because tap dancing isn’t exactly something I know a whole lot about, but who cares?!?! Why is it that when Obama’s success is threatened by actual competition, his supporters always point to the fact that “It’s because he’s not white.” Grow up. This presidential race isn’t about color! Anyone who says that it is about color would make them a racist.
If you want to support Obama, support him, but for his issues and his vision, not the color of his skin.
83. Larry | 10.16.08
Most people are uninformed about how taxes for owner run businesses are calculated. They think that if Joe’s revenue is over $250, his taxes will go up, which will discourage Joe from hiring more help.
That’s completely wrong.
Joe’s taxes are based on his PROFIT, not his revenue. Profit is calculated by taking total sales and subtracting all expenses, including salaries and benefits, parts, office expense, etc., etc.. The tax rate is based on the PROFIT from your business. Then you take all of your personal deductions to get taxable income, which is what your tax is based on. Then you take any tax credits for which you are qualified.
In Joe’s case, if his PROFIT minus personal deductions and exemptions exceed $250K, he will pay a higher tax rate on the portion of his income that’s over $250K.
There are a lot of comments from uninformed people who get this completely wrong, then use their misinformed reasoning to make negative points about Obama’s tax policy. Anybody who wants to make an informed decision should not be fooled by this kind of misinformation
84. oh know | 10.16.08
Just feel like saying they both looked nuts last night. Neither party could come up with better canidates? Joe the plumber seems to have more wits. Sorry Dems and Reps you both need to get your stuff together. More and More Americans will not be going to the polls at all if “they” keep this up. It looked like a third grade class president debate.
85. samcla | 10.16.08
I have been a high tech small business owner and I NEVER had a profit of 250K that I could call my own. WHY? Because any business owner uses any possible profit to re invest in their business as the deductions bring down the taxes. It is very misleading of Joe to say he will have to be paying for his business for many years to come and at the same time say his profit will be more than 250K. All his payments on any loans are deductible!!! He also will pay less on all his profit BEFORE he reaches 250K compared to today because of the brackets in the tax scale. it is only on anything above 250K that he will be paying a a MARGINAL increase (and that is AFTER all his business deductions; i.e. employee salaries, health insurances, costs of running the business etc.) On the amount above 250K that is pure profit, he will pay 39% instead of 36% in tax, so for an additional 10K above he will pay ONLY $300 more than today–i.e 3 percent more than today. That’s how marginal tax increases. The money Joe does not use for his employees or his business will go to Joe’s possible customers, so they can afford getting a plumber in the first place and that will grow his business. Especially since Joe’s money will just be a small amount of money being moved to the middle class. Big OIL will pay WAY more–and with the highest profit taking in history, we know they can afford it. The American Dream is for EVERYBODY, not just a few fortunate.
86. mglory | 10.16.08
Karl, no one said Free…the word was less…like taxes that goes with the amount of money the person is actually making. Rich people do not understand that the money that the middle class is making is what is keeping them in business…so it will always come back to them.
“20. Karl Moyers | 10.16.08
I would really like to see the full blown financial statements of the business Joe wants to buy. Then compare the effects of Obama and McCain Plans and really see the hard data on this.
The real questions is why should anybody who makes more than $125,000 a year get a free ride on taxes. Everyone should pay their 7.5% for medicare and social security regardless of income. This would also include golden parachute, bonuses.”
87. zevkhai | 10.16.08
Just one question…. Regarding Sammy Davis Jr., he actually was a great tap dancer.
88. JD in NC | 10.16.08
I think it is weird that McCain, who both married into and was born into wealth and privelege, is the trying to be the champion of the “self-made man”. Obama and “Joe” have more in common in earning their fortunes.
Obama a spoiled kid? Did McCain ever have a student loan? Obama could have been even richer after law school, but he chose service over profit.
Some might call that putting Country First.
89. Jill | 10.16.08
McCain came across, again, like an angry old guy. He appeared out of touch. His Joe the Plumber commentary left out any salient information, such as just what money was Joe planning on making that Obama’s tax plan would impact? Joe’s personal income as a first year business owner? Likely that’s under $250k. Perhaps his gross receipts? Taxes are paid on profits. Does the business earn enormous profits? Since none of us really know, and no one was provided any of the data in advance to review, it was a stupid point, and a typical politician looking for a reaction. I want information based on facts. McCain comes up short. It’s been typical of his campaign. Ill prepared. Knee jerk. And certainly not what we want as a president. He’s a “b” player in an “a” game.
90. leo | 10.16.08
Were screwed either way.
i wish i made more then 250k. i would be willing to pay more taxes. but that would probably change once i got there. i would turn greedy like every other human.
91. sreede | 10.16.08
I’m so tired of these same worn out Republican talking points! “tax and spend” liberal? what’s the alternative ? - being a “borrow and spend” conservative? If the government doesn’t collect enough taxes , it can’t run. Unless it BORROWS money- (either from foreign governments or from future taxpayers that have to pay down the massive deficit). Bush/McCain economics are the opposite of being fiscally conservative! Right now we’re borrowing so much money from foreign governments that if a country like China decided to pull all their investments out at the same time, it would make the current financial crisis look like a cake walk. The government needs a lot of amount of money just to fund the things we can all agree on: from schools, to protecting us from terrorists, to filling potholes and making sure no more bridges collapse. The earmark “problem” is just a smokescreen- Earmark spending only accounts for 1/2 of 1% of the total U.S. budget. And guess who voted for the wasteful “Bear Study” that McCain brought up at the last debate? McCain! Fortunately most people are starting to wake up to the fact that economic policies that only benefit the top 5% of the population don’t make any sense. If Joe the plumber can’t afford a new van and he’s making over $250,000 net profit a year- then maybe he should hire an accountant before he tries to buy a van, because he’s obviously doing something wrong.
92. draiford@hl-isy.com | 10.16.08
Joe isn’t an economist, but he’s absolutely right. By the way, those evil corporations that Obama wants to punish (although they’re already paying the second-highest tax rate in the world) happen to employ about a third of the nation’s workforce. Obama also is shaky with his math — when he says “95 percent of small businesses won’t pay more taxes” he’s lumping sole proprietorships into the mix with those that employ 1-4 employees. Sole proprietorships, by Census classification, employ no one and combined with those small businesses that employ 1-4 people account for less than 15 percent of the nation’s workforce. Once you get to the 10 or more employee range, then the income is most certainly above $250K. So, again, Joe is right when he says Obama will be punishing those entrepreneurs who succeed only to benefit those who employ no one. Just because a demagogue is eloquent doesn’t make him wise, or right.
93. Annon. | 10.16.08
I don’t get it. You want health care but are unwilling to pay more taxes or hold large corporations, who can afford it, accountable?
Nocroman.. You have never worked a minimum wage job… Accountability must start somewhere.
94. Manju | 10.16.08
Joe was trying to fix Obama when he asked a question. He was not open minded about the answer. Eitherway, McCain won a battle, but not the war. He can disown Bush, but he wouldn’t be able to disown Bush’s legacy.
Obama is not on far left. He tries to be in the middle. That helps the country to rid of the deficit to some extent, I hope.
96. Cole | 10.16.08
Guess what? They did a fact check on this Joe, and here are the results. Joe admits that he makes much less than $250k (on CBS) so that he will actually pay less in taxes under Obama’s plan. But here’s the kicker…Joe is not even registered to vote! He has no voting record what-so-ever. Nice try Republican. Yet another instance of childish buffoonery spilling over from the right. And to all you who keep chiding for Obama for laughing last night, McCain was the one laughing and smiling and interjecting for the first 2 debates, and yet had nothing to say. Obama was smiling and laughing in disbelief because for every lie McCain told, Obama came charging back with facts, numbers, and get this…logic. Roll over Republican, you’ve run this country into the ground long enough. It’s time for the Democrats to move in and see what they can do.
97. Another Plumber | 10.16.08
Well, everybody is either forgetting the fact that the businesses can write-off lot of things that an ordinary middle class citizen. If you consider the write-offs then you will understand that salaried people pay more tax in % wise than any other business owner. Another example. Warren Buffet pays less tax (%) than the people work for him. Here is how. Warren is not working and he is not getting interest or anything like that. So if he needs money, he will sell $4 million worth of stocks that are more than an year old, so it becomes the longer team capital gain. Now let us assume that out of $4 million, $2 million is his profit. He will only pay 15% of that $2 million he made. But if a salaried person gets say $150,000 he/she will pay 30% tax. Well is it called socialism, yes. But any taxing system works that way, whether you like it or not. Now you will understand why the people making more money should pay at least the same % if not more.
98. skippy | 10.16.08
Why does everyone cry racism? I guess I better vote for Obama less I be tagged as a white supremacist by everyone eh? Thats fair… You shouldn’t criticize Joe, he might be Irish or something, that makes you a bad person who hates immigrants right? You dont like palin? You must be a male chauvinist. How about I dont like Obama because I think his ideas are bad, and thats the only reason. I guess I could generalize as well and say everyone who likes Obama is a welfare abusing loser who could get a job but wants to milk the system instead, and everyone who likes McCain is a multi millionaire who hates poor people and steals candy from little kids.
Get a life
99. Anne | 10.16.08
Um - How dumb IS Joe the plumber?
“Just because you work a little harder, to have more money taken from you — that’s scary,” Wurzelbacher said. “Why should they be penalized for being successful? … That’s wrong. … Obama wants to take that basic right and penalize me for it. That’s a very socialistic view.”
hey - that’s our progressive tax system; you get richer, you pay more. Invented, I believe, by a guy named Adam Smith? Not exactly a socialist.
Obama won this debate hands down. McCain was a tired, grouchy, nasty, smirky washed up candidate who didn’t listen to the questions nor to Obama’s answers and who maybe was “feistier” but came across as the same old has-been
100. Robert | 10.16.08
Bank Disaster “Clearly” a Clinton Era Problem?
President Bush often announced to Americans to borrow on the equity in their homes, assuring us the economy was “thriving”. The deregulation of the banking industry is a more likely reason for the reckless and predatory practices of the industry and why people are paying 29% on their credit cards. That deregulation goes back to the Reagan years. It’s ironic how much supply-side industries dislike “government intervention” until that intervention makes them $700 Billion.
101. Jeremy | 10.16.08
From d…”My guess…you vote McCain because he’s white. Am I right or am I right?”
Well first off nobody has voted yet so thats not the issue. But tell me this you will vote Obama because he is black….I am right or am I right? Well as a white American what I said will be considered racist garbage, but not so on the other side of the aisle. Anyone who votes based on race is a moron not worthy of their vote and are part of the problem and not the solution.
102. JaMarcus | 10.16.08
Obama got schooled. Plain and simple. He stated his obvious Marxist views and was beaten over the head by his own statements. He wouldn’t disown John Lewis for his racist speech. As an unbiased observer(I will vote for neither candidate) I would say Obama is coming off as the racist bigoted person in this campaign. McCain isn’t Bush, and Obama is more like Stalin with a bias against the cultural and racial majority in this country. We should be united against this hate speech by the Obama campaign. As a black man it sickens me to see this race-baiting against anyone who doesn’t support Obama, he is a socialist; that is reason enough not to support him. It is sad, but I must say all Obama has done is play into the fears of the 60s in the black community in order to gain political power.
103. Bob | 10.16.08
Obama looked and sounded presidential. McCain looked and sounded desparate. McCain was constantly off issue, ranting about one thing or another. Obama looked bored with McCain, and I don’t blame him, I’ve had enough of McCain too.
104. sue | 10.16.08
Obama smirked and did laugh at mccain when he did not agree. i saw it and so did some of the reporters they even said so.Yes Mccain jumped in some times when he shouldn’t have but thats a debate happens all the time. But laughing at someone is uncalled for, thats just plan rude.
105. Jim G | 10.16.08
I thought Obama won the fight myself. Which makes him the winner of two debates IMO, and Palin vs. Biden was laughable. 3 debates won by the Dems.
Yes McCain had his moments. But most Americans are not dummies and we can see through the b.s. If Joe the plumber is making $260,000 a year gross profit before taxes, after all business expenses, he’s doing awfully well and he can afford to be patriotic and help pay his fair share of Dubya’s deficit off.
106. Jake | 10.16.08
““…almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr””
“racist much Joe?
My guess is that your mind was made up when you saw the color of Obama’s skin.
Thanks sir, but I won’t be calling for your plumbing services anytime soon.”
Are you kidding me? RACIST? Why should anyone have to pretend Obama isn’t black?? (when everyone says it’s so damn historic that a black man is could be president) You can’t compare a black man to a black man!!!!??? What the FUH? There’s a reason some people stereotype black people, and it’s because everyone’s so damn afraid they might accidentally say something a black (or any other colored) person might possibly, in some ridiculous way construe as racist!!! PLEASE tell me how this is racist. Obama will be worse than Bush, NOT because he’s black… who cares what color he is!? HE’S A SOCIALIST. THAT is why won’t vote for him.
My guess is that the only reason you’re voting for him is because he IS black. THAT is racist.
107. getitgotitgood | 10.16.08
Joe the Plumber gave more interviews that Sarah Palin–maybe Jow should be VP. At least he could save us some money on plumbing repairs in the white house—no more $8,000 toilet seats!
108. Paul | 10.16.08
I like that, “poor people have been voting for Democrats for over 40 years and those same people are still poor.” Did anyone expect anything diffrenet. Demos have been promising things to get votes and are still holding people dependant on the federal government. You want to distribute the wealth? WORK AS HARD AS THE GUY WITH ALL THE MONEY!
109. Beth | 10.16.08
I think it would be great to see Joe Plumber in an interview. Who is he and who is he voting for? Why hasn’t the media found him yet? He has become famous overnight. Watching him discuss his issues and his plight could be a nice diversion from the baseless rhetoric we are hearing from both campaigns.
110. G | 10.16.08
I think the debate was just a big waste of time. Everyone knows the way history goes. When the economy is tanking, unemployment still climbing, gas prices way more than unacceptably high, stocks having seizures, and Vietnam II (Iraq) still dragging along, The People know the only way to turn these things around is by voting the current Party out of the white house and the other Party in.
Exit polls on the debate showed Obama favored over McCain almost 2:1. I have no doubts what the results will be November 4th, unless the elephants attempt to falsify the voting results again. They don’t have a prayer this time; too many people watching out for such shenanigans.
Give me an O! Give me a B! Give me an A, M, A! What does that spell? Alka Seltzer!!! (Singing: plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is…)
111. Karl in CT | 10.16.08
Apparently, people don’t understand how taxes work.
First, if you really believe that higher taxes on higher earnings mean you don’t want to make more, then go get a minimum wage job and you will be in the lowest tax bracket.
Second, If you have a business, and you are making $250,000 or more and you are still paying taxes as an individual YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Go get yourself incorporated and take advantage of the corporate tax laws.
“Joe’s Plumbing LLC” will pay much lower taxes than Joe the Plumber.
112. Drew | 10.16.08
I was disappointed that McCain didn’t attack Obama’s tax plan with numbers, and opted to do it by anecdote, but I suppose that’s what resonates with most people. Obama’s tax plan does not cut taxes for 95%, plan and simple. His campaign has redefined the term “tax cut” to include tax credits, which are by no means the same thing, and which do not have the same effect on anyone’s marginal tax rate. Under Obama’s plan, the marginal tax rate for almost everyone will increase. And the 40% of Americans who already pay no income tax will receive a “tax cut” in the form of additional credits. It is a wealth transfer which will require government to create jobs instead of private industry in order to prevent skyrocketing unemployment, which will lead to further tax increases to support government’s burgeoning payroll. A rose by any other name is still a rose, but a tax increase by any other name is . . . change!
113. Mark Stouffer | 10.16.08
Looks like everyone here thinks if you need more money the gov’t should give you more money. If they think you have enough you won’t get more. How could the government be wrong? Kind of like they were doing with FNMA and Freddie Mac. If you need a house you get one. The problem is only that it doesn’t work. It will always require the government to step in and bail out.
Is it just that you want more and don’t know how to get it so you think the best thing to do is elect a president who will get it for you? “There is a lot of wealth out there. How come I don’t have it? It’s so unfair that people are richer than me!”
Do you really think that is a healthy model for an economy?
Egotist: Someone who cares more about himself than he does about me. –Ambrose Beirce
114. John | 10.16.08
Nocroman-
There is indeed a minimum wage law. Under McCain’s plan, if you were listening last night, the medical insurance coverage provided, I would guess, by YOUR employer becomes taxable income. What does that amount to? A tax increase, right? And you are saying that employers should be required to pay for medical insurance for their families? Shame on you for such a Socialist idea.
The alternative to encouraging employers to offer insurance to their employees, which Obama proposes to encourage with tax credits and incentives, is to have the rest of us pay for the uninsured when the show up at the emergency room. Which, by the way, is where I work, and I see this every day. And you are right that so far there are no laws on the books addressing this. Yet.
116. izzybee | 10.16.08
This Joe the Plumber is not exactly Joe Sixpack, as he has at least quarter million bucks. He could always incorporate his plumbing biz, and perhaps value it at $5 under the new limit. And, there is some indication that he may even be linked to Charles Keating (!!), a relation of his son-in-law, Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? The former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
Here’s a link http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/
117. AlbertW | 10.16.08
I prefer Warren Buffet’s view of the American Dream to Joe the Plumber’s. If you saw the clip, Joe kept talking about the American Dream. By that, he meant the opportunity to get as rich as you can get without being taxed more than ordinary people. That’s what the CEO’s who got 350-480 million from the companies they bankrupted did. They got rich and avoided taxes. Buffet would go at it in another way. He would create value. He would believe the American Dream also involves service–in the armed services, in community service, and even through the rich paying a higher rate of taxes for the good of the nation that made them prosperous in the first place. Finally, the American Dream also means protections of things like the right of privacy and Habeas Corpus. If you want to destroy this nation quickly, all you have to do is to see the American Dream as the right to get as much as you can get, even if you have to do it at the expense of others.
118. Tim | 10.16.08
McCain’s comment about 50% of small businesses paying 50% of the taxes reminds me of a one-liner from Anchorman, the Legend of Ron Burgundy: “Sex Panther Cologne: Works 70% of the time, 50% of the time.” Who pays the other 50% of the small business taxes then? Sounds like the other 50% aren’t paying anything which is awesome!
119. don | 10.16.08
I love my country, but I am scared of our goverment. Sad thing is it should be the other way around…
120. CP_R1200R | 10.16.08
It’s not surprising that Joe favors McCain, most people are inamored by his POW experience and give him a the benefit of doubt, even though his fellow POW have qute a different opinion of “Songbird” as the Vietnamese nick named him.
If Joe thinks he would be better off with McCain than Obama, then I’m sure he is happy with Bush and how thinks are going in America today. To bad he doesn’t look beyond sound bites, or read beyond headlines.
121. art | 10.16.08
“IN GOD WE TRUST” Isn’t that an american way and now God is briging a Saviour for us all “Obama” to us out of this mess created by 8 yrs of Republican Rule. Thank God for this
122. Joe G | 10.16.08
“The government does not owe you anything except a fair playing field.” - Quoted for truth.
Government has to make sure everyone has the same opportunity to succeed.
Anyone that actually believes the government should have the right and power to act as a Robin Hood needs a head check.
And no, I do not care for Obama’s ideology. Guess that makes me a racist. I’m not allowed to ideologically oppose an african american’s point of view. Is that what we have become?
123. jack pack | 10.16.08
Joe the racist idiot. This guy gives plumbers a bad name! And he’s not even registered to vote? Maybe he can remember the 3 Rules of Plumbing: don’t chew your fingernails; paycheck comes on Friday; water flows downhill-like the McCain campaign-down the toilet!
124. Kaci Obama | 10.16.08
McCain said, “We need to cut taxes for big businesses, not spread the wealth. What type of Sugar honey iced tea is that? I’m a college student (not Joe the plumber) I need help. I am trying to be successful but nobody made it alone. It takes a village to raise a child. I came from a great household, working-cl***, single mother home (never welfare). However, my mother put 3 kids through college. To McCain, we the people don’t give a damn about you watching the Cardinals beat the damn Cowboys Sunday. You should have been paying more attention to this election, your campaign, our dependency on oil, the war, health-care issues, foreign policy, education (our school system in general)you know things that our economy needs. Silly Rabbit.
125. Leigh | 10.16.08
First of all … “spreading the wealth” is an Old Testament concept … giving 10% of whatever income you earn to help care for the less fortunate who have little (or no) earning power (widows, orphans, etc.). Jews and Christians alike have no business criticizing Obama’s desire to do what our churches & temples haven’t been doing well (if at all).
Secondly … McCain’s eye rolling and smirking reminded me of “Mean Girls”. I certainly don’t want someone who can’t find the self-control from within to act professionally for a mere 90 minutes to be meeting with world leaders and representing our country.
126. zerlina rosa | 10.16.08
McCain the bully needs to go get a spa treatment in Sedona and relax. Mr. Smartypants Obama needs to get some rest so he looks fresh for his inauguration.
127. The Mokoda | 10.16.08
If you don’t want Obama to be President, then don’t vote for him. If you don’t want McCain to be President, don’t vote for him.
Have all you people forgotten how simple this is? Why do so many of you keep bringing up meaningless, charged non-issues instead of focusing on which candidate you honestly think is going to move the country in a positive direction as President? Why is it necessary to obliterate the other guy in order to persuade people to support the one you want? Isn’t that just silly?
ACORN, POW, Ayers, Joe Plumber, McCain being 182 years old or Obama being black having a “muslim” name…none of this gets us into a better position in (or out of) Iraq, none of it grows the economy or makes it posible for my children to have a realistic crack and the now-fading American Dream. None of this puts food on my table, clothes on the backs of nmy children or a roof over the head of my family.
I want a president who can resolve these and other issues, not one who can explain to my satisfaction every mistake or bad decision he’s ever made or what glorious thing he might have done 40 years ago. It’s not about me, it’s about US as Americans. The candidate I intend to vote for, I honestly believe he can and intends to do the MOST good for the country as a whole.
128. Toby | 10.16.08
Wasn’t Sammy Davis Jr. one of the greatest taps ever? So why isn’t Joe allow to make a reference to that? Why is it always a race issue when a black man’s accomplishments are mentioned?
129. Bob | 10.16.08
Much more than 35% of wage earners pay income taxes. The estimated number is around 62%, but that is even low. Every wage earner pays tax through payroll tax and it is not kept in a special fund for Social Security, etc. It is used for the war, the infrastructure, etc. They may get most of it back if they qualify for credits and refunds, but they still “pay income tax”. The myth of the majority of wage earners not paying tax is just that, a myth perpetrated by conservative radio pundits and others.
130. Arye Michael Bender | 10.16.08
Senator Obama could have easily overpowered the pugnacious McCain, but did not. The reason: He would have seemed to be attacking a frail but angry old man. Intelligence, cool, and genuine class prevailed. Exactly the traits I want to see restored to the presidency.
- Arye Michael Bender -
131. Obama is a fraud | 10.16.08
I love how McCain answered all of the questions like he had a plan and knew what to say. Obama was struggling trying to say what he thinks you want to hear. Obama is oblivious to how the economy works. There is no incentive to work hard and become wealthy if ultimately everyone is going to bring home the same amound of net-income. He said he wanted to tax big oil like Exxon for example. Guess what? If you tax Exxon they will just pass that cost on to the consumer. The real reason Exxon posted record profits was because speculators drove the price up and a barrel of oil is measured in US dollars. The dollar has been extremely weak lately. The profits look large but Exxon is a global company and the US Greenback does not measure accordingly to many other currencies out there such as the British Pound and the Euro.
As far as redistribution of wealth goes, the poor don’t think it’s fair that they are uneducated and don’t make as much as the hard-working person who put themselves through school all the way. Of course the poor will favor more money, especially if they don’t have to do a damn thing to get it.
For all of you accusing Joe as making a racist comment, Sammy Davis Jr. was a phenomenal tap-dancer, which is why the comment was made. Ask a Conservative a question and they will give you a direct answer. Ask a Liberal and they will avoid anything close to a relative answer.
McCain tells us his plan and then elaborates on it. Obama just sits around and says we need “change.” Ask him what kind of change we need and **** tell you, “we need reform.” Ask him what kind of reform do we need and **** tell you, “we need change.”
I won’t even begin to talk about ACORN, Ayres or the Reverend because I could write a whole novel on that subject. Ask Obama about those relations and **** tell you that it’s not fair and irrelevant to bring his past into the campaign. He’s a typical Chicago politician and his wife is a wanna-be Black Panther. Have you wondered why we haven’t heard from her in quite some time?
Do your homework and look at Obama’s background and realize the truth that he is a true socialist instead of seeing him as your savior because Bush is/was such a horrible president.
132. Sam2 | 10.16.08
If Joe works “10 to 12 hours a day, 7 days a week” as McCain stated during the debate, when does he find time to throw football with his son and appear on TV? McCain sounded like the kid on the playground who nobody wants to play with because he can’t get beyond trying to act tough and pick fights. By the way, have you ever seen the small handful highways in Ireland? The willingness of Americans to pay taxes at a scaled rate according to their ability to pay makes America strong.
133. Drew | 10.16.08
Al, leave if you want. I felt the same way in 2000 and 2004. Good luck getting a home loan.
134. ConservativeNY | 10.16.08
Kolinski
“We don’t need some grumpy old man in office who has a notorious temper (which the public hasn’t truly seen yet)”
Stop drinking the Kool-aid. McCain has been serving in DC for how many DECADES? You’re telling us that the public in all those years did not have an opportunity to see his true character? Can you make the same claim about Obama? Actually, if you want to make this election one about character (or experience for that matter), Obama would lose.
135. Chris | 10.16.08
So as a small business owner, when I just get to that 250k mark, I just start pulling more cash than I already do. I do not think I will be the only one doing that.
137. Frank | 10.16.08
$250k/yr is middle class? I guess I need to get a gut, lose my hair, get a tight T-shirt and make racist comments.
Joe Racist doesn’t speak for me. I’m white, I work hard for my family and I’m voting for Obama.
Bend, OR
138. Ryan from Ohio | 10.16.08
FYI: The reason Obama was laughing at most of McCain’s rhetoric was because McCain was distorting the facts beyond the point of hilarity.
If you Republicans would actually think about the issues for a change, then you would have known this. Instead you need easy, extremely vague words like “socialist” and “palling with terrorists” to latch onto. If you’re not willing to follow the facts and the flow of information on these issues, then stay at home where you belong and watch Dancing with the Stars. Let us adults worry about the country for a change.
After 8 years of children running this country, at least Obama knows a lie when he hears it.
George Bush and McCain and the rest of you right-wing extremists should take some lessons.
139. Rick Leland | 10.16.08
Rick the Carpenter here(now a publisher).
I can relate to Joe the Plumber. I owned my own small construction business for over twenty years.
We always ran on finacially astute operation. We had years when the “business income” hit over $500,000. Personally, 60 hours a week was common.
Government taxes and regulations weighted in mightily on stripping down the $500,000. Sure, we had significant other expenses. So my personal cut out of the whole deal was just Average-Joe income. Pretty dead-center middle class.
Anyone who would vote for an increase in any kind of taxes (or fine) and then “trust” the government to trickle it back in an efficient, equitable fashion needs to have the plumbing in their brain checked.
Maybe Joe the Plumber could make a house call.
140. adoubleya | 10.16.08
I knew when I watched 5 minutes of this debate that Joe would be the star the next day. I was right. What I’m even more concerned about is the actual issues. I heard a lot about healthcare and tax plans but I didn’t hear any real answers to the problems we’re face today. What about Iraq? What about our civil liberties? Nobody really touched these issues.
I agree with “cowl”.. Since when is making $250,000 a year considered to be middle class?
A good line I heard in a movie reminds me of politics today. In regard to the 2 “major” parties, “they shovel us the same old s**t and call it sugar.”
141. Wade | 10.16.08
Obama’s plan on effects profits, you know total income after expenditures. If Joe is making 250,000 in profit he is doing pretty well, as in the top 1.5%. This is his profit, he doesn’t have to buy trucks or pay salaries with this. This is what he has left after all that.
My family income is almost 50,000 a year, we pay 400 a month for daycare, 960 in rent 400 for car payments and paying off student loans. We have plenty of money to save, and for entertainment. If Joe is having trouble making ends meet its Joe’s fault.
142. Ryan from Ohio | 10.16.08
FYI: The reason Obama was laughing at most of McCain’s rhetoric was because McCain was distorting the facts beyond the point of hilarity.
If you Republicans would actually think about the issues for a change, then you would have known this. Instead you need easy, extremely vague words like “socialist” and “palling with terrorists” to latch onto. If you’re not willing to follow the facts and the flow of information on these issues, then stay at home where you belong and watch Dancing with the Stars. Let us adults worry about the country for a change.
After 8 years of children running this country, at least Obama knows a lie when he hears it.
George Bush and McCain and the rest of you right-wing extremists should take some lessons.
143. Ron | 10.16.08
I find it hilarious that some people worry that an Obama presidency will be “the beginning of socialism in this country.” Socialism began in this country in the 1930s with many of the New Deal policies - and while some of it hasn’t worked out well, it is not always a bad thing. And did you notice that a key feature of the bailout led by the Bush administration is, in effect, nationalizing much of our banking services? What is more socialist than that? And that comes from the champions of the far right!
144. Aaron | 10.16.08
why do over 50 terrorist oganizations all over the world support Barrack Hussein Obama? maybe you Obama Groupies should wake up from your trance and look at the facts.
you check this website and you will find a list of all the organizations throughout the world that support Obama.
145. Kris | 10.16.08
Bottom Line, there has never been an honest and truthful president. This country has gone down the tubes the last 8 yrs and we all need a change. Mccain is not the right man for the job. He is 200 years old and can barely get around. He is the shadow of W. and will continue to lead this counrty down the wrong path. Lets give the Dems a shot at rebuilding this nation!
147. Ena | 10.16.08
Sarah Palin scares me. We can’t take a chance of something happening to McCain. He looks like a good stiff wind would blow him over.
Gah!
148. S Cato | 10.16.08
PHIL.4 McCain never said he met the plumber. He saw the video of Obama speaking to him outside the plumber’s home. McCain was commenting on the video tape and exactly what Obama did say. It’s on tape so Obama can try to change the version all he wants, but just like his record, it’s recorded and he can lie all he wants. But if you’re intelligent enough, you can check the facts!
Also, I was listening the next day when the plumber was called on the phone. He was asked if Obama changed his mind. Joe the plumber said, “No, Obama scared me.” “To me that sounds like socialism”……
Next time, check your facts first.
149. Arnold Layne | 10.16.08
You race- baitors make me sick. In fact, SD,jr was a good tap- dancer.
And applying a common phrase, ‘tap- dancing around’ someone, is not racist.
OH, but applying those to a black man is racist - but only if you are a left- wing nut job race- baitor. Oops, I forgot to add ‘fascist’.
150. walford | 10.16.08
There is no way to accomplish recovery by taxing and spending. FDR tried it and the worst year of the Depression was 1937. Money went into tax shelters like Swiss bank accounts and stamp collections rather than investment. The war is what ended the Depression — and war is the only thing that can lift up a planned economy.
And most importantly, this crisis was not created by an excess of economic freedom. The inflated housing prices were noticed 10 years ago by those who were looking. Barney Frank resisted reforming the semi-gov’t Fannie and Freddie. Mortgage companies were intimidated by possible lawsuits for not lending to those with bad credit and/or unable to post a down payment.
Also, in the back of their minds, the mortgage companies lent with the full expectation that they’d be bailed out if their unwise loans defaulted.
Obama promises to remedy this with more of the same poison that brought us here in the first place.
151. Tina | 10.16.08
This blog is on the Christian Science Monitor.
Why aren’t WE behaving like TRUE Christians
It is okay to have different opinions.
The economy is crashing all around us. We HAVE to get together. Work together. If we are going to save OUR country. Please, talk like adults. And figure out who you are going to vote for.
I personally like Senator Obama. Becuase he is educated. And is able to evaluate options. And seem to be conducting a very impressive, consistant campaign. This tells me that he is going to be a great leader.
152. Michael Sutera | 10.16.08
Why do people play the RACE CARD when they have no real defense or answer to a question…. That’s what got OJ off… it set a murder free….
Obama always laughs off a serious question or address one that he makes up.
153. Pat | 10.16.08
Atuhalpa,
You have a valid point but what you forgot is that an American life costs far more than an Iraqi of an Afghan life. I am not saying that should be the case, but that is the case. So its natural for Americans to care less for thousands killed by neocons’ decisions and more about the ones killed by al-queda.
155. TML | 10.16.08
If you want someone that will eloquently speak rehearsed talking points, by all means vote for Obama. Economy is tough, we all know this. But the economy can’t take what he is proposing. Tax cuts on 95% of Americans is masking all the tax hikes he will put in place.
I’m also not impressed by his calm demeanor. I agree with the person who asid he laughed off every single important question. He can’t think outside the box, and McCain challenged him.
Obama supporters will see what they want to see and McCain supporters will do the same. But to say that John McCain didn’t challenge him last night isn’t accurate. He did just that. No matter what side you are on.
And for those of you here that commented on race issues. Your argument is backed by nothing but ignorance. Race is not the issue here. Get over that.
Obviously my support is for John McCain. A man who I think can lead this country in the right direction. My trust is in him.
156. Chris S | 10.16.08
NO Vadim, your comment “That’s the premise of the tax system, any tax system, to redistribute wealth to where it is needed / counts most,…”
What you are saying is Socialism! that is NOT what the tax system is for. It is for creating a BASIC infrastructure to allow the INDIVIDUAL to succeed. 30% of people don’t pay any taxes at all and just sponge off the rest of us. I bet you are in that 30%
157. Unseen Caller | 10.16.08
Why bother watching these dog and pony shows? Both will lie through their teeth to get elected. Waste of time. One retard here said something about “the world being a dangerous place” yaddayadda.
It’s somewhat dangerous, yes, mainly because of the unholy alliance between the U.S. and Is-it-real. Both candidates of course have bowed to grovel before Israel and its agents here in America–it is an absolute requirement for success in an election.
But Obama is the lesser of the two evils. He will be best out of the two. How anyone could STILL support the GOP neocon-infested trash who have also sent us
to the poorhouse and gotten us into Iraq through unmitigated lies and deception continues to elude me.
158. Josh | 10.16.08
What a joke the whole thing is; it is about as relevant as two high school girls talking about boy bands. These guys have very little actual power.
However, you do have people making and controlling TRILLIONS of dollars in the markets and various funds. That is so obscene. TRILLIONS. More than you could ever spend in 1,000 lifetimes. Why don’t people talk about that?
These so called political cultural issues: gay rights, abortion, racism, etc are just ways of distracting you from the real issues of power that influence your lives. Look up the Rothschilds, the “federal” reserve, fractional reserve banking, Max Keiser, market transparency, Benjamin Fulford, Alex Jones, Peter Schiff, John Perkins. That’s a good place start looking at the real issues facing us today; issues that most politicians won’t even touch.
159. Joan | 10.16.08
By most standards, I am rich. After my regular 10% tithe to the church, I support 3 missionary families and one African child. I provide Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners and gifts to those who have none. If the government taxes me more, many families will suffer and go hungry. If you tax oil companies more, they’ll pass their taxes down to us in high gas prices. How did I get rich? By working 14 hour days and Saturdays so that guy who said he couldn’t imagine anyone who makes $250,000 working 10 hour days doesn’t have a clue. Check the facts–only 10% of bankruptcies are due to health care costs. The rest of us just overspent. America is in trouble no matter whoe wins. Stop whining and take care of your own finances. And maybe try to help out your neighbor instead of complaining and buying so much junk.
160. margaret vela | 10.16.08
This administration has used fear to get elected. (fear of homosexuals getting married). Fear to put us in a war in the middle east that has no winning solution.(fear of weapons of mass destruction) and now fear that the economy will collapse if we don’t bailout the major companies that have been giving embarrasingly high salaries to their greedy, unpatriotic CEO’s.
I can’t believe the bill passed and we actually bvailed out this companies. Trickle down economics works on the premise that large corporations are run by fair, patriotic individuals that are going reward the productive hourly worker. The hourly worker will then have incentive to work harder therefore producing better goods. They will in turn spend their money buying more and keep the nation’s economy healthy.
What is happening is the opposite. The unproductive CEO’s have gorged on riducuosly high salaries and bonuses, kept the productive hourly worker at a minimal paycheck to paycheck survival mode and then is shocked when the economy grinds to a halt because noone can buy anything.
The warehouses are full of merchandise that we can’t afford to buy after we pay for essentials.(ffod and shelter) The debt we are facing for bailing out this corporations has weakened this nation.
The war in Iraq has weakened this nation. Does anybody out there care about our nation and what has happened to us this past eight years.
Remember the good old days when all this nation was worried about was whether Bill Clinton had or hadn’t had an affair outside his marriage.
161. CP | 10.16.08
Wow! Obama is going to give 95% of working American families a tax cut. What a guy! Too bad only 40% of Americans today don’t pay income taxes. How in the world will those people get their tax cut? Oh that’s right, a “refundable tax credit”. What does that mean? It means that the government will take money from those who pay taxes and redistribute it to those who don’t. Kinda sounds like welfare doesn’t it…whoops did I give away the secret? Please keep Obama out of the oval office (not that McCain is such a prize either). Do your research before you submit your ballot.
162. Democrat in VA | 10.16.08
Hey, what happened to Joe Sixpack? Did he get bumped by Joe the Plumber? Or maybe he IS Joe the Plumber. I’m confused.
I find it amusing that the republicans have sent a plumber out to spew all their BS.
163. getitgotitgood | 10.16.08
McCain was 5th from the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy. Palin took a half-dozen years and five colleges just to get a journalism degree (its not that hard–I got one). Palin has briefly been governor of a state that has a population equal to that of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Obama went to Columbia (political science and international relations degree) and then graduated with high honors from Harvard Law, and then taught Constitutional law for many years. I’m voting for brains–not color, rhetoric, lies, teenage pregnancies, abortion, or past preachers, etc. Simply put, Who is smarter?
164. Evan | 10.16.08
Started a small bus. back in ‘96, sold it in 2006. I found State comptroller a FAR greater impact on my business than the IRS…FICA/Medicare/SS taxes placed on individual employees, businesses are merely the transactor. I plowed bus. profits back into expanding my business; I wasn’t taxed on that revenue.
Now if I had taken huge profits, I WOULD have been taxed, and I’d be ok w/ that, personally…instead, I used a SEP-IRA. The Federal gov’t has far less impact on bus. climate than do individual states–that’s why so many people (for example) live in Maryland but commute to work in neighboring Virginia. Obama’s proposals would not adversely affect small businesses, wouldn’t help them either–but as I said I didn’t see a big Fed role there anyway.
That whole issue boiled down to Obama threatening BIG companies like K-Mart who don’t offer health insurance to their employees. K-Mart knows that those employees will receive Medicare assistance, or simply go without…they are un-patriotic, they are greedy, the are shameful. McCain’s healthcare proposal would REWARD large companies like K-Mart for their bad behavior. Conservatives think that ALL busineese are good, are worthy of any help we can give them.
McCain did’t lose this election…FAILED CONSERVATIVE ECONOMIC POLICIES DID.
165. joe | 10.16.08
$250,000! It is astounding how many people do not realize the entirety of the situation. Joe is not taking home that kind of money.
If he isn’t incorporated, and files his taxes as an individual, **** be lucky to see $100,000 after overhead. There is alot more to running a plumbing business than people think.
What peeves me most though, is that people believe a plumber is not deserving to make that kind of money. it takes 5 years of experience to attain a Master’s plumbing license.
In the meantime, a guy who serves his apprenticeship as to go through a lot of excrement to achieve that position, more than many people will put up with. Do the math and you’ll find that a plumber would have to be making $120.19 an hour to make 250k a year.
Certainly, plumber companies do charge a premium; in some places up to $100 an hour, in others $35 an hour. If you hire the guy who is charging $35 an hour, chances are he is not insured; so if he catches your house on fire or floods it . . . good luck with that.
A good contractor insurance policy costs around a $1000 a month, add in vehicle insurance, vehicle maintenance, property insurance, bookkeeping costs, the price of gasoline, shop utilities, rent/mortgage, advertising, and soon you see why a reputable plumber charges what they do. The average journeyman plumber working for somebody else makes between $20 to $30 bucks an hour.
Figuring at $25 an hour, if a guy works 2080 hours a year, he will make $52,000 a year. After taxes, social security, and Medicare a guy makes about $34k a year. That’s $18,000 a year he donates to the government. Why anyone would be happy with that is beyond me.
If you think for a minute, either of these clowns is going to come through with their promises, your a dreamer, and you need to wake up and smell the coffee. We are in a downward spiral at the expense of big government . . . i have know desire to help those who should be out there helping themselves.
I don’t mind helping someone in need, however, there are many who take advantage of the system, and the government enabling that sort of action is akin to those arguments made by Thomas Paine.
Its the 5% of people out there who spend frivolously, and those who didn’t do their homework before signing their mortgages, that have let their finances go that are ruining it for the rest of us who maintain our mortgages and other bills.
166. James PAtterson | 10.16.08
I think the Joe the plummer show was a protracted plant. While it was an interesting shell for a plot, I seriously doubt either candidate actually listened to what Joe was saying or asking. I’d like to perhaps plant any intelligent women at a palin rally, say my 23 year old daughter, and turn her loose with a few questions. Then use “Rachel the Writer” as a fake pretense to repeat tired, old (not to mention practiced and advised) comments regarding the intellect-substance-integrity gaps that could come up in any given Palin exchange. Again, it was somewhat intertaining, having Joe in the house and all, but I can’t see how anyone actually believes it was anything but theater, all the way around.
167. MJ | 10.16.08
Why is a white person who supports Mcain called a racist, and a black person who supports Obama not called a racist?????
Racism exists and it is not just a white thing.
I’m sure there are people that will only vote for a person because the color of that person’s skin matches their own.
More white people are voting for Obama then black people are voting for Mcain.
168. Mark Foster | 10.16.08
John McCain is a man of true American values. He stands for everything this country is founded on. We must remember where we come from and why we have the freedoms we have today. We have made it pretty far as human beings and we need to remember how we got here and McCain stands for everything that got us here today.
We cannot put the blame on John McCain for the mistakes that George W Bush has made when it comes to the War in Iraq. I am in the natural Gas industry which I believe along with wind, solar and technology is the answer to the energy crisis we are in today and McCain has strong policies furthering the advancement of these fields. This will create more jobs in the United States and allow us to become more independent when it comes to energy that is going to power the future of our economy.
I am also an independent contractor and have concerns about the health care we rely on to keep ourselves healthy to move forward as citizens of this great country. I don’t believe we need to rely on the government to give us money to afford health care because this is just another hand out that will be taken advantage of. But we do need to regulate the process of getting approved for health care to protect the elderly that desperately need it to allow them to complete their lives the best way possible. We also need to regulate the medical industry and doctors which malicious charge unnecessary fees just because someone has insurance. This my fellow Americans is called Greed which is tearing our economy in half, just look at what is going on in the financial market today.
I do believe that there are people that do need help because they do not have the means to help themselves. I do not believe we should take from the rich and give to the poor to solve this issue. We need to help these people but you also must realize that when we rely on the government to take care of everything then we cannot take care of ourselves when the government is not able to be there. I believe that Katrina is a strong example that we must learn from when it comes to this issue.
We are now living in a consumer society. I believe we need to learn from what is happening in the market today which stems on the fact that we are spending more than we can afford. We need to learn to live within our needs instead of continuing to spend… spend… spend. We need to support policies that do not rely on spending too much money. We need to wake up and see that this is the reason why we are where we are today.
God Bless America!
169. maggie | 10.16.08
McCain was a disgrace last night. He’s sunk to the lowest point in his career. The McCain-Palin ticket is the scariest thing that has happened in American politics yet. In only 2 years of being a governor she’s already racked up ethical breaches one after the other, promising to be an even worse VP than Cheney. And that’s saying much! McCain doesn’t have a reasonable thought in his head, he veers from one end of the spectrum to the other. He looks and sounds desperate and the flop sweat smells to high heaven. At this point it doesn’t even matter that the Obama machine keeps chugging steadily along, the wrong thing to be in the country today is Republican. Republicans have brought this country to the brink of bankruptcy no less than the USSR went bankrupt after decades of inbreeding and misguided positioning. There for the grace of god go we… and the edge of the world is just ahead.
The poor may still be poor after 50 years of voting the Democratic ticket, but they are a whole lot more poor after 8 years of Republican governance for the rich. History is clear, Democrats consistently raise the quality of life for everyone, Republicans consistently downgrade the quality of life for 99% of Americans. You vote Republican, you steal from your neighbors.
170. North Carolina Voter | 10.16.08
It seems to me if Joe the Plumber doesn’t understand the difference between a company’s revenue and his personal taxable income, he’s not quite ready to own a business.
Also, isn’t a shaved head and goatee the “uniform” of the white supremacist?
171. Jimmythe Gent | 10.16.08
Joe the Plumber sounds like he was planted by McCain. And let me get this straight, Joe would be worth more than $250K and he’s acting like an underdog? Also, his “Sammy Davis Jr.” dig is obviously racist. He dares to be coy about his vote on the talk shows. You can be sure he will vote as guided by his nasty racist soul.
172. nctransplant08 | 10.16.08
McCain supporters need to wake up! The Republican Party has been rewarding the wealthy for years and years and it has not worked. That’s why we are in this mess we are in. The last 8 years of W economics, has created this monster and Americans are sick of it. We need a change. Maybe McCain should stop mud slinging and get his facts straight. But when you are down I guess you have to lie and tell half truths. Personally he is not fit to lead this county and either is his running mate. Enough said Obama 08!
173. Independent | 10.16.08
Listen, the bottom line is that there were no knockout punches delivered in the debate. Both Obama and McCain delivered just a more descriptive show of debate 2. Now, as an independent, I wouldnt mind either one in the whitehouse. I voted for McCain in the 2000 election. And lets face facts, he should have been president then. But the man isnt the poster child for healthiest person of his generation. He has suffered very detrimental attacks to his health. He shouldve been president 8 years ago. Bottom line - who delivers in the current economic crisis better, what team members will form their cabinet etc, who can deliver us from the 8 years of deficit better. NBC profiled that under McCain’s term would bring a one trillion dollar deficit at the end of 4 years while Obama’s would bring $737 billion. In the parlance of the majority of Americans and economists everywhere, this stands out. Oh and Palin (Or as Bill Maher puts it, Avon Lady) would come to power. This isnt Alaska, this is our Country. She maybe smart and familiar to Americans everywhere; but presidential qualifications are quite different. Stifler’s mom cannot run the Whitehouse!
174. DaTruth | 10.16.08
Wow, some of the comments here show how repubs continue to garner votes by keeping their supporters stupid by lack of investment in education. Obama looked presidential, again; and McCain looked like an angry old man. Amazingly that some here still try to distort Obama’s word and still care about Ayers and other lies. If you’re republican and not wealthy, then you’re just ignorant.
175. tdub | 10.16.08
The “Joe the Plumber” stuff was classic old school, folksy McCain, but Obama still walked away from that issue with more ideas and articulated rationale for Joe the Plumber.
It was also astonishing to watch the “liberal” press fawning over McCain’s, “I’m not Bush” refrain last night, like that was some sort of brilliant revelation. This apparently (to some) dramatic statement took about 30 seconds to be completely debunked, based clearly on McCain’s record that is in lockstep with Bush, but the press seemed to eat it up like a kid starved for cheap sweets.
Meanwhile, McCain looked and sounded like an old grump with an odd smile/smirk pasted on his face, presenting few new ideas while Obama looked, acted and articulated presidential.
176. Light! | 10.16.08
Barack Obama inspires people because he is true to himself and speaks from his heart. He is open, relaxed and resilient in the face of attack, rather than getting tense and striking back. The third debate showed the character and capability of both candidates. Barack is highly intelligent, calm, caring, restrained and focused on actual issues. McCain is average intelligence, angry, pugilistic, sarcastic, stuck in a war movie mentality, and hiding behind mudslinging because he has very few actual plans or solutions to offer as leader.
It looked like a foreign relations preview with each man treating the other as they would world leaders they met with. McCain filed miserably and would make our reputation in the world even worse than it currently is, since he cannot see the big picture. Barack was kind, polite and patient, unlike McCain, and would mend wounds, and take the USA into a better position with our neighbors of Earth.
177. fghl | 10.16.08
Unless your a Conservative I don’t agree with you, who cares about race? I’m a student and I don’t care, I’m voting for McCain because he’s someone who understands making sacrifices. Besides Liberals Today are straying away from the Foundation beliefs of the democratic party anyway.
178. barrett hays | 10.16.08
John McCain came out sounding like a grumpy confused old man! He seemed irritated and unable to keep on track. His actions seemed to have been medication driven, however I could be wrong! Obama was calm, cool and collected! He was focused, and determined. He is the guy that could carry America to greatness! His vibrancy is something that reminds me of the Kennedy years!
179. Fair | 10.16.08
Just tax everyone 10%. If you make $12 Billion that would be 1.2 Billion. If Joe makes $250,000 then $25,000 why is that so hard? Lucy ’splain. No loop holes no credits. Nothing. 10% thats it. Easy to figure easy to count.
For the Financial mess. Forgive all depts. Clean slate. No bail outs. No fancy schemes. If you don’t own 51% of a house, car, building, etc. the gov owns it. You want it back make a bid on it. Highest bidder owns it. Dont like it. Too bad, so sad. Stop spending your cash like a drunken fool. Learn your lesson and move on.
180. jcam | 10.16.08
We live in a SOCIAL DEMOCRACY. The amount of ignorant, fear-mongering comments on this blog is truly disheartening. The fact is that the republican trickle-down model did not work, the war (including the infamous “surge”) did not work, and the “we are born superior as American’s” attitude did not work. The simple fact is that the vast majority of us will not ever make more than $250,000 per year so get over it and vote for the person who will help out your real situation. Take money from the rich and give it to the poor. Simple.
181. duh | 10.16.08
regarding $250K a year. (Obviously none of you are self employed) If Joe the plumber charges you $100, the IRS sees that as $100 of income. However, Joe has to pay for his tools, his trucks, his fuel, advertising, BOTH halfs of his social security, etc., etc. I bet he is lucky to put $20-25 in his pocket on the $100 he charged you.
182. JayDoubleYou | 10.16.08
I’d like to inject a little logic into this debate if that’s okay with the socialists in this forum. In order for entrepreneurs to invest in creating small businesses, they have to weigh the costs and benefits. Because opening a small business is a big financial risk, one that could cost the owner’s life savings, the reward must be commensurate with the risk. If you tax a small business that makes $250,000 or more at a higher rate, it will discourage investment and stifle the economy. It’s plain and simple.
Additionally, when small businesses make decisions about expanding and hiring new employees, they have to calculate their investment hurdle rate, that is, if they expand their production or capacity, how much revenue do they need to earn to cover their costs. When tax rates go up, the “hurdle rates” also go up, meaning that revenues have to be higher to break even. This makes investments more risky, so businesses are less likely to invest in expanding their operations. What does that mean for the “little guy” that Obama claims to be supporting? It means he won’t have a job.
Trickle UP economics is illogical and is purely a political tacitc. While it is an inferior economic system, it generates wide support among middle-class and poor voters. It’s a trick, but one that democrats have used successfully for many years. It’s just sad to see that people continue to get duped by this rhetoric.
183. K | 10.16.08
So Joe gets successful on the backs of his employees, which apparently Joe doesn’t plan to provide any healthcare to, and he thinks that he shouldn’t have to contribute back to America? If so, screw Joe. You want to be upper class Joe, fine, but you don’t get to walk on America.
Joe doesn’t care about his fellow American, he cares about himself. That’s not good citizenship.
He’s looking to make $250,000 a year, *himself*, and wants us to feel sorry for him. My whole household doesn’t make $250,000 a year, in fact it doesn’t make half that, and I consider myself middle class. If Joe thinks the regular American makes $250,000 just like he expects to, he’s clearly lost his mind (mental note to anyone planning on investing in or working for Joe’s future business). John McCain told Joe “Congratulations, Joe, you’re rich.” I agree. Welcome to the top 5% of Americans, Joe. The remaining 95% of us who can barely afford to buy a house or new car, never mind a $250,000 plumbing company, don’t feel the least bit sorry for you.
184. Ken | 10.16.08
Decreasing the taxes for those making under 250k will increase the money in Joe-the-plumber’s customer’s pockets. Thereby giving Joe a larger base of customers. If they have more money, they will spend more. Yes, when Joe is more successful he will incur a higher tax rate. That is the way it works.
186. Penn Taylor | 10.16.08
Someone else mentioned it before, but it needs to be stated again: Businesses, *including sole proprietorships*, are taxed based on net income (profits), not based on gross income (receipts). If Joe the Plumber is worried about Obama’s tax plan raising his taxes, that means that he *personally* is making more than $250,000. His business must be making way more than that given that there will be capital equipment costs, employee wages, and depreciation. The idea that Joe is perhaps only making $40,000 or so because his business is eating up the rest of the money is FALSE. That’s just not how business taxes work. Please, please, please, Jimmy Orr and other CSM journalists: point this out in any articles that involve the candidates’ tax plans. Too many people misunderstand what is meant by “small businesses making over $250k.”
187. JJ | 10.16.08
What’s going on here? I’ve heard 3 separate and conflicting things, some from Joe himself.
Is Joe’s personal income $250,000 per year?
Are Joe’s business revenues $250,000 per year?
Is Joe trying to buy a business for $250-270,000?
Joe, please get your story straight.
188. Drew | 10.16.08
Obama’s tax plan does NOT cut taxes for 95% of people. See post 115, or read any halfway decent economist’s blog.
Walford at 153 has said the most sensible thing on here thus far, but I suspect that while he is right, he would also admit that history is rarely a well-heeded teacher.
189. jim257 | 10.16.08
Joe looked like a McCain plant, they had all set up and readdy to go!!
Next day Plummer Joe is on every TV Network. come on
190. Web Smith | 10.16.08
In order to get city, state, and other general contractor work, Joe the Plumber hires union plumbers. They get their health insurance through the union. It is deducted from their paychecks. Union plumbers cost Joe a lot more money than scabs, but a lot less money in law suits because they know how and why to do things the right way. Joe now knows that neither one of these guys have a clue and he is really, really worried.
The bank bailout worries Joe, too, because he knows that the population has just had more wealth taken from them and they won’t be able to afford to hire him.
191. Mike from Colorado | 10.16.08
On the issue of taxes and taxation, we should all pay our taxes and be grateful that we live in a country with political stability, clean water and decent roads, where the police and fire departments show up when we need them and politicians don’t use the military to usurp power. By the way, I paid over $27,467.00 in taxes last year.
On the issue of health care, I have MS (multiple sclerosis) and my medication cost an astounding $18,000.00 per year. If I loose my medical insurance no provider will offer me a policy because of my pre-existing condition. This “cherry picking” behavior by insurance companies is immoral and outrageous, not to mention barbaric. If this is such a great nation, we need to start acting like it and covering everybody, yes, even the sick.
192. I am a Joe the Plumber Too! | 10.16.08
I am a Joe the Plumber & make over $ 250 K in net income before taxes. The VAST majority of that income is retained as WORKING CAPITAL in the Sub Chapter S Corporation my wife & I own, employing 24 employees. We take out salaries of less than $ 100 K of the business, but need the remainder for working capital to maintain the business without relying on borrowed money for payroll and expenses.
We have done an analysis of Barak Obama’s tax plan, and have determined if we lay off about 10 employees, we can actually save money by paying fewer taxes than if we retain the 24 employees and make a higher income that will be taxed under Barak Obama’s proposed tax plan.
A LOT of SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS are all talking about Barak Obama’s plan that will de-incentivize entrepreneurialship & risk taking.
People have got to stop being misinformed thinking the profits Obama is planning to tax is gravy and a windfall to the small business owners of America.
Obama’s plan will cause more unemployment & basically reward mediocrity.
Everyone ought to pay taxes, fairly as to their income, but not in a mode of income redistribution. Honestly, this thought is more like Socialism than any other thought I have seen in my lifetime in America.
193. Concerned | 10.16.08
I don’t care about “Joe The Plumber”, how much he makes or if he pays higher taxes. I care about who comes up with the best plan and who actually implements it! I thought the idea of a debate was to have each candidate discuss their views and policies. Obviously they will disagree with one another, they’re not running mates! For one second I thought McCain was really reaching out last night but then, in McCain fashion he acted as though he was being personally attacked. McCain is right, Obama does have an eloquence about him. He is very cool, calm and collected when answering questions. Do we really want someone running the country who flies off the handle when things don’t go his way? Someone who is always reacting emotionally without listening (quite apparent of McCain last night from all the interuptions of Obama)? This is one of the most difficult elections!
194. Gafferty | 10.16.08
Gosh-Darn-It. I think Bill “Bojangles” Robinson was every bit as good a dancer as Sammy Davis Jr.
195. Benjamin | 10.16.08
Joe the plumber doesn’t have to worry about higher taxes if he gets successful, because people who worry about tax rates when they set out to become successful, NEVER BECOME SUCCESSFUL. You want to strike it on your own, you need to have the stones to stand on your own, to make it in spite of, not because of, government policies. That’s something that Joe and the people who think like him don’t seem to have.
What someone should do is ask Joe(and every republican like him) if he supported the war in Iraq, the war on drugs, the war on terror, then ask him where he thinks the money is supposed to come from to pay for all the expensive things he supports. That’s the problem with republicans, you hear them talk, you’d think the answer to every problem is tax cuts, but you look at their spending record and you’re left wondering “Do these guys think magic fairies are going to pay for it all?” You’ll also note they never touch on the subject of what is too low a tax rate. Obviously there is such a thing, because government requires taxes to operate.
This is where the anaracho-capitalists in the republican party are exposed. There is a strong cross section who thinks we’d all be better off if we were governed by the “efficient” market rather than the “inefficient” government. The problem is, the market is not concerned with the higher virtues of society, like equality, justice, and freedom. The market is only concerned with profit, everything else it is interested in only insofar as it serves the motive of making profit. So in the absence of government regulation - if it became profitable to ban firearms, the free market would work towards that goal. If it became profitable to increase the number of abortions, the free market would work towards that goal. If it became profitable to bring back slavery, the free market would bring it back. This is where the free market would take things in the absence of government regulation, regulation which requires taxes to enforce.
It is better to be governed by “inefficient” laws than the free market. That’s the only way that societies shared values can be realized and the only way stability can be had. The founders knew this, which is why they gave us a nation governed by laws and not the free market. The free market simply does not care about values, only profit. I wish Joe the Plumber(and all those like him) had the mental ability to consider the bigger picture that they’re a part of, instead of just themselves.
196. terrie | 10.16.08
we have one Savior that is Jesus Christ, but i do agree we need a change and change is what we will receive with Senator Obama
197. Congress Hater! | 10.16.08
Anyone want to tell me what that group of impish old men making a lot of money actually do for our country. What ever happened to checks and balances? Why do we blame one guy for all of our troubles?
Isn’t it time we start holding congress more accountable for passing bills with so much pork and self-interest that it ends up hurting the tax payers.
Vote for enacting Term Limits, make any contributions and contact from Lobbyists illegal, and make every candidate, no matter what office they are running for submit their plan of action once they are elected and make them legally bound to their plan.
At least we would know exactly what we were getting, instead of empty promises of “change,” it takes a village,” and “no new taxes,” etc. Stop American tax payers from getting screwed.
198. Unbelievable | 10.16.08
I am about as unbiased as they come. I think both candidates have their positives and negatives. But what makes me sick is reading some of the previous comments. I mean c’mon how can some of you pull the race card on a comment such as “almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.”? Would it have made you feel better if he said Fred Astaire instead? Remember Obama is mixed! So would comparing him to Fred Astaire been a racist comment as well? It takes a lot of ignorance to think that whites are the only people who are racist…you could always ask Rev. Jeremiah Wright his views on the subject. Racism is a shame to begin with, it doesn’t need people jumping to inappropriate conclusions and fueling the fire. If that is the ideaology of some Obama supporters then that may make my decision on who to vote for a little easier!
199. ConservativeNY | 10.16.08
Bunny
“It makes me afraid of the wars they will start, the people who will be hurt by taxes, lack of decent health care ($5000 doesn’t cover me for 6 months!)and the land they will rape to get oil.”
Where were you when the Democrats where starting wars and bombing countries around the world? Were you protesting Clinton’s bombing of Iraq, Serbia, Bosnia, Sudan, Somalia, and Afghanistan? How about the starvation of one million Iraqi children? Want to go back to the Vietman war (JFK & LBJ)? The use of nuclear weapons (Truman)?
As far as $5000 not covering your entire health care, SO WHAT?! Who told you that government is supposed to provide you with even a fraction of what is required to insure you and your family (by private company)? It is an INCENTIVE to buy insurance, much like we have incentives to buy a house (interest is deductible).
As far as “raping” the land for oil, perhaps you are missing the point that oil will be pulled from the earth as long as there is DEMAND. The question we have to answer is if we want to pay FOREIGNERS (including enemies) to meet that demand, or to pay (to a greater degree) Americans.
200. phil | 10.16.08
wow. just wow. all you conservatives who are truly conservative why are you wasting your time on McCain? shouldn’t you be looking at a true conservative like Bob Barr? seriously. both of these guys are losers and will be a 1 term president. the stock market is dropping because people see the future and that future is more business’s will need bailouts. McCain and Obama will bail them out. we need much smaller government. we need to pay more taxes. we need to stop spending 400 billion on defense and stop spending money for bases over sea’s. we do not need to be isolationists. we have the ability to be any where in the world in 24 hours. we have carriers that can be positioned in the world that would allow us to defend ourselves at any time. we do not need 200k solders over sea’s on perm station. we can feed the nations we feed and at home. we need to talk to our enemy’s like most people who are very strong in international politics say. and McCain is a laughing stock. he was the right person 8 years ago. but the wrong person now. obama is the wrong person now. both partys are responsible for this entire fiasco. was a repub congress who denied the call for bank regulation under a Clinton administration and the warning was signaled by a republican.
i also find it funny that McCain would bring up the fact that supposedly congress is controlled by the dems when in fact the senate is split 50/50 and the house does not have a majority to over ride a veto. McCain is out of touch and Obama is not a good choice. noone running other then Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich. since they actually had good idea’s and didnt dance around the real issues.
201. John McBush | 10.16.08
Joe will vote for me, he’s a hard working, stupid, “good-ole-red-neck” american who loves to get out of paying any tax, just like the rest of my lie’n repubican buddy’s in the oil industry, I wonder if he would buy some oil stock from my bother George W ??
202. Luke | 10.16.08
#6 GBC
“…almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr”
racist much Joe?
My guess is that your mind was made up when you saw the color of Obama’s skin.
Thanks sir, but I won’t be calling for your plumbing services anytime soon.”
—-
I’m sorry, Is it because Sammy Davis Jr. is black that this is racist? I didn’t realize that if we were going to make a comparison of one person to another that it needed to be of our same race. That’s the ass-backwards thinking that people have when they are LOOKING for racism in every situation.
Thanks for keeping everyone a step behind.
203. Bob Smith | 10.16.08
Everyone seems to talking about “Socialism”. But I dare say that a better description of Obama’s attitude and position would be “Communism”. Afterall, it will be a “ObamaNation”.
204. Peter | 10.16.08
Assuming Joe works 8 hours a day, 6 days a week. As far as I know all the plumbers I have hired works on time and material basis - I pay their time and I pay for the materials they use on the job. At $250K, Joe is making roughly $100/hour fully burdened. Obama’s plan is that you pay taxes on the first penny over that thrashold. Seems fair enough. Its even fairer if you look at the employement and health care credits you get if Joe hires someone to work with him.
The problem with Joe is attitude. Give him credit for asking the tough question. Give him credit for his aspiration to take hold of his own destiny. Beyond that, he will always be the regular Joe — not thinking the big picture. Not understanding the true value of making $100/hr. and that paying tax of 3 to 4 tenth of a penny for every penny over that trashold goes to help other Joes who, too, wants to throw football with his sons but instead has to work double shifts 7 days a week to keep food on the table.
Joe - take the deal! $250,000.00 is a lot of money
205. Sandy | 10.16.08
Quoting #35:
“Frankly, I don’t care about Joe the Plumber, Joe Six Pack, or Joe Blow. I’m sick to the point of nausea from this “homey” B.S. insulting the majority of the American population with the PTA-meeting type speeches and the Wal-Mart mentality. God help this country if the majority relates to this insipid rhetoric.”
Thank you! We need to move beyond this notion that the “typical American” Joe-Schmoe is necessarily a white, Christian, suburban plumber whose big American dream is to start his own plumbing conglomerate. There are more people in New York city than the eleven least populated states combined. America is very diverse. We need to move beyond the notion that rich people work harder than everyone else and that poor people choose to be poor. If rich people are successful, good for them: I say keep up the good work. But allowing the wealthiest of the wealthy to just hoard their money while the “lazy rabble” can hardly pay their mortgages is preposterous. Taxes should be proportionate to one’s income, period.
206. Amber Taylor | 10.16.08
America is a place where you can have nothing and work to become rich and succeed doing it, a lot of places in the world do not offer that. John McCain didn’t grow up in a family with low income and worked his way to success. He is a rich kid, and everything was given to him.
Obama worked for his success and earned it. He wants to do something good for you, and all Americans. McCain is another politician in the pocket of big companies. If you can not see that, then educate yourself. I have come from nothing and now I am doing well. Lets not abolish the middle class, and have extremely poor people, and extremely rich people.
Obama has been driven in his career to help people, McCain is a war monger. hmmm really tough choice…
207. dealbreaker | 10.16.08
Fundamentally, Americans should not be penalized for their hard work and success. But small business often get relief in the early stages in the form of better interest rates on loans, subsidies at the state and local level (business development), and the like.
There is no free money. Every business owner faces different challenges and possible benefits & breaks. When you get a business development loan my state for example, you’re expectation is to create a predetermined realistic # of job creation. If you meet this, your interest rate is lowered (as your benefit to society has offset the money required to be repaid for the government to redistribute in aid to ailing communities). My guess is there have been breaks along the way for Joe, even if Joe may get taxed for breaking through 250k on the back end, he more than likely (if tenacious) got some relief on the front end. Whether or not it’s even-steven, is another question, but the intention makes sense. It is the “help do-it-yourself” approach, rather than the “class-warfare” that McCain touts.
The point is that Joe’s taxes when earning 250k+ will help the future Joe’s in the same way he was helped getting off the ground when he started out. Reciprocity, not socialism.
208. Eric | 10.16.08
The great depression was caused by the stock market crash (black tuesday), the failure of banks to pay back savings and 401k’s, etc, the fatc that people didn’t spend money after the crash,and poor trade with Europe, along the poor weather conditions in America at the time.
Today our recession was caused by similar things, such as de-regulation, which led to our detiorating stock market because no one is holding these large companies and banks accountable for our money, which led to these banks failing to pay for savings and 401k plans. Now people aren’t spending any money, and that will only hurt us more.
Obama is spending money to put money into the market, which will increase business and create jobs and grow our infastructure. Spending will help us, not hurt us. Also he will increase regulation of business transactions and the acitons of these large insurance and banking ocmpanies that have been bailed out.
In my personal opinion, about the deabte, McCain should have been moderated more because he cont’d to interrupt Obama or talk when it wasn’t his turn. I felt that Obama answered most if not all teh questions, as for McCain, I think he went on the attack far too much, instead of just getting his point across to the American ppl.
After the debate, when Mitt Romney spoke, I could hardly contain myself. Romney said that Obama had the most negative compaign ever. Which is clearly wrong to everyone, because Obama’s ads are rarely negative besides for when he states clear evidence, unlike McCain whose ads are all negative and state very little evidence and are actually wrong on Obama’s healthcare and tax plans. I hopep that all Amerians realize that McCain is runnign a very dirty race and doesn’t tell the truth all the time, and will not be a fit leader for America.
209. GOPMOMENTUM | 10.16.08
I find it hard to believe that in this country we would even consider a person for President who has a personal track record like Obama’s.If Obama would answer some very simple questions about Ayer’s, Wright,Acorn without lying all the time I might be more inclined to believe some of the things he says.I have owned my own business and struggled to pay my own health insurance for my family while others choose to sit at home and wait for their government checks to come. Obama’s plan is pure socialism and the only one’s who benefit are people who lack drive and motivation. Just look at Europe as the most recent example.
210. Gary | 10.16.08
I used to vote Dumbascrap, but after I got out of school and started working, I saw what welfare was doing to my fellow african-americans. Welfare is holding down the poor and uneducated, and where I grew up; the majority of the poor and uneducated were african-american.
Welfare - Is our biggest problem.
The uneducated and jobless don’t need to ever get an education or a job because the government gives them money and a place to live. If the uneducated want extra money, they can easily resort to criminal activity, and if they get thrown in jail - it doesn’t matter cause they were already living off a govenment handout.
If you want to help education, the homeless, fight crime and the economy, we need to strip away welfare.
People are stronger and better than the Dumbascraps give them credit for. If there is no other option, people will get jobs, and educated for better jobs.
The Dumbascraps are more racist than the Republicans.
211. Wade | 10.16.08
#177
What state run media?
Are you ignorant or just plain stupid? Media companies are are owned by RICH CONSERVATIVES.
Wow I didn’t know Rupert Murdoch was a state!
212. Joe Broke | 10.16.08
Don’t think Joe-the-Plumber’s can make 250k/year ? Go call one sometime, be ready to use your gold card, you won’t have the cash.
213. john m | 10.16.08
It offensive for the above posters to say that someone who is poor cannot work harder and become something more. I grew up on welfare, with a disabled mother and without a father, and am now on of the ones who will be impacted by higher taxes under Obama’s plan. I had no help along the way - I put myself through college eventually by working 12 hour shifts at night. I put in more hours and did more work in my spare time in order to get promoted faster and farther than my peers.
Now, as a reward for my hard work, I already pay a significantly higher tax rate than the middle class or poor. I understand that people unable to work (i.e mentally or physically disabled) cannot do what I have done, but there are programs that help them already. I have seen that with my own family. By redistributing wealth further in this country than we already are doing, we are perpetuating the myth that even if you work hard, there is not an opportunity to make it to the next level. I already fund enough opportunity for others. If they don’t take it, then we should not be giving them more and more.
214. Mike | 10.16.08
Look … My perspective is this. If you pay taxes you should vote. If you don’t pay taxes or you live off of social government programs like welfare then you shouldn’t be able to vote. If you are an illegal immigrant then you should be deported. And if you are not a citizen of the United States of America then you should not be allowed to buy or own property in this country period! As to taxes - if we all paid the same percentage (a flat tax) then we would all pay taxes proportionate to our income and can get remove the huge government organization called the IRS. If we payed 15% of our income to taxes and I made twice as much as you did, then I would pay twice as much in taxes. If you destroy the premise of democracy and capitalism and move everything into the government to be government run organizations then there is no more competition. Without competition we will have nothing. There are great doctors, scientists, etc. that strive to be the best because it means something to them and they and their family get rewarded for what they do. If you take that away we will have nothing left. A lot of our service jobs have been off-shored to India and our Industrial jobs have been destroyed because we buy everything that is made in Japan and China. Take a walk around your local Walmart one day and look at everything that they sell (Made in China). Our energy in imported from other countries around the world. Why don’t we make our own stuff, create our own energy, bring jobs and businesses back to the USA and stop letting our government tell us what we have to do. We don’t need socialism, marksism, or communism, we need to go back to being the best country in the world, the country that attracted all of our ancestors, and the reason that we live here today — The USA! And by the way, make sure that you never forget that in the countries that are socialist the citizens pay over 60% of their income in income tax. So they pay much higher taxes and have much less decisions to choose from.
215. No hope | 10.16.08
Why do people that do not pay taxes or pay very little get tax breaks? Makes no sense. My husband and I worked our butts out to make it to where we are and barely have any money saved for our kids college. Our income is finally over 250,000 and now I have to hand it out to people who did not use the opportunities this country gave them? McCain looks like he is having a coronary every time he talks, Obama simply smirks, and Palin will leave this country’s prominence paling if she ever became president. There is no hope.
216. evilTerrorist | 10.16.08
Wow such BS on the boards.
American has one of the highest tax rates in the world? Prove it, certainly not among industrialized nations, or any government in Europe.
And no there is no law mandating the employers provide medical care. So instead what happens is people do not go to doctors until they are so sick that millions of emergency room procedures are needed to make them, better and we the tax payer, working class middle America foot the bill. WAKE UP, this is utter BS the United States of America is something in the realm of 26th in health care among the worlds industrialized nations. Behind such healthy nations as CUBA we as Americans are paying for Universal Health Care without any of the benefits.
And let me know when his Plumbing Buisiness is making more than 250K a year in net profits, because that is when he will be taxed not on the gross. Both parties should be ashamed because we are looking at 10.2 trillion in debt as of today, and even more no matter which candidate gets in office, and jobs loss will be meaningless when the bucket of dollars it will take to purchase break becomes our childrens or our reality.
217. Jon | 10.16.08
It’s tough, in a way it doesn’t seem fair for the business owner to pay more taxes, but I’m not a business owner, so it helps me. There are many rich millionaires, or billionaires (Warren Buffet), that support democrats. In a sense, the more I pay just means the more I made right? I don’t think I’d mind helping out the little guy by paying higher taxes so they pay less. In theory, I probably made most of my money off of them anyways. I don’t think the Joe Plumber statement was racist either, at first I thought so, but really, if you think of tap dance, do any white names come to mind?! NO. And I also love how Obama supporters think just because someone doesn’t like him means they’re racist! Just fits the stereotype of certain people always assuming race is an issue.
218. Freedom&Truth | 10.16.08
The racism charge is made for the following reason… A large portion of the white population fear black people. Generally, because they don’t know any black people, their fear is fomented by ignorance. This is the fear of the “other”. It is a socialogical fact. Republicans have tapped into this and have had the race vote for four decades now. This is what McCain is tapping into when he says “that one”. Ask a black man, he will tell you. The core of the target audience is represented in the figure of “Joe the Plumber”. His fear of “that one” and “socialistic” taxes only resonate with him because he has been so blinded by the TV and corporate media that he does not see that the true “other” is the economic masters of this country that are exploiting his community, and the true socialism he lives within is corporate socialism.
Sadly, thanks to this type of emotionally potent demagogic propaganda the economic elite have SUCCEEDED in robbing blind the common people of this country and the world. WAKE UP!
219. GiveMeABreak | 10.16.08
These people yelling Racist at Joe, come on! Really? Do you know Joe? I didn’t think so. I don’t either. But geez. That’s pretty pathetic! Because he names Sammy Davis, Jr. as a tap dancer that makes him a racist? Because he isn’t voting for Obama, that makes him a racists? Wow, what is this country coming to? If, off the top of my head, I had to name a tap dancer, it would be either Sammy Davis Jr or Gregory Hines. Guess what, they were both black. I know this because they have both lived during my lifetime and were both great tap dancers. I don’t name them because they’re black. These two gentlemen are the first two that come to my mind when I think of tap dancing.
Admit it, Obama danced around the question. Wait, I just said the word “dance”. That comes from the French word, Danser. Does that mean I’m “racist” against the French? See how STUPID the racist comment sounds and how STUPID that makes you look??
Me not voting for Obama has absolutely NOTHING to do with his skin color and EVERYTHING to do with his socialist-type policies. To be quite honest with you, those policies freak me out a little. If Colin Powell were running for President, I would vote for him no questions asked. The guy is a genius. Probably even more-so that he chose to stay out of this mess. Now, you wanna play the “Race Card”?
I am certainly not saying they’re aren’t racist people out there in the world? No. Not at all. They definitely do exist. Both black and white. But to cry “racist” every time a black person in general is mentioned, that’s taking it WAY to far.
Lay off of the whole “racist” bit. It’s tired. It’s worn out. And it makes the people who say it look like idiots because it looks like a cop-out. A cop-out for you not knowing the facts. Try looking at the facts. Look at the records. You might be surprised. You might just learn something.
Words and names that I’ve mentioned that might make me racist:
Cop-out
Socialist
Colin Powell
Gregory Hines
Sammy Davis, Jr.
Obama
French
Dance
Danser
Tap Dance
… See where I’m going with that? It’s just ridiculous nonsense. So is your racist claims of Joe the Plumber.
220. Ron | 10.16.08
The IRS reported in 2007 that the richest 1% of tax filers paid more than 40% of the income tax burden. The top 50% account for 97% of all federal income taxes, while the bottom 50% paid just 3%.
These are indisputable facts. Look it up yourself. I ask everyone, especially the media, to stop making the wealthy out to be some sort of boogeyman. Geez. By picking up the newspaper you’re practically told that every rich person is paying no taxes. In fact it’s quite the opposite.
221. danger | 10.16.08
Talk about a free ride…please stop this silly argument about how no one should have to pay for the cost of civilization. There are plenty of countries who citizens don’t pay for roads, utilities, military. Please go there & stop muckin’ up this country. Bravery goes beyond looking after your own interests. Does anyone seriously believe businesses pay a disproportionate amount when it is actually the working class who pay more & always have. If you have worked in any kind of business you learn that it is not the people with money who pay their bills it’s the people who don’t have a lot who always figure out a way to pay.
222. GetItRight Please | 10.16.08
I feel like half (or more) of America is taking “Crazy Pills”. Obama is a shoe in to win this election, Why: Because he comes off smooth, he laughs off any real questions of his past, he laughs off in real holes in plan. PEOPLE come on; I know you grew up on MTV and Paris Hilton but are you kidding? How could anyone here this guy, look at his lack of any meaningful experience, look at his past and take him as a serious choice? Obama will not be as good as John Ritter in Americathon (and if you don’t know what that was please don’t vote). Raise taxes NOW?- I say raise taxes NO!
223. Demosthenes | 10.16.08
Does either side make any sense to a middle class family.
Oh you can do well voting for McCain, if you are in business and in a corporation because that is how his family earns and keeps its wealth. So I unlike so many of you will rise through the ranks and become truly wealthy because I was taught how to do it and will.
Or with Obama you can have a great rise to success but when you get there you are going to pay more so many others can just sit back and receive. So many liberals are angry with rage at Dubya that they are ignoring very real issues with Obama like if he was even born here.
What of the other parties? There are others we could vote for. I think we are being served a fools meal where the two monopolies have written the rules of their debates beforehand and then tie up time with controversy instead of real issues and values. I wish I had a none of the above this year.
224. G | 10.16.08
176. DaTruth
Ignorant is not the word I would have used. I’m inclined to say stupid, which doesn’t mean the same thing, but I think the most appropriate term is probably “In Denial.” People who aren’t wealthy but choose to become Republican are wearing blinders, deliberately lying to themselves as to the goals, values, and history of the Republican Party as it relates to individuals in their income bracket. My parents are Republicans and have never been wealthy. I have never understood them in this regard. I chose Democrat for many years, just to be different, but eventually became Green because the Democrats were doing things I found fault with. I still usually vote Democrat, in agreement with my spouse, who is more politically savvy than I am, but the values of the Green party remain closer to my political ideals than any of the other choices. I would vote Greens for major offices, except I am at least realistic enough to face the fact that the likelihood of the big two ever making enough space for a third major party is Slim and None and Slim just left.
225. MA from NM | 10.16.08
To all of you socialists voting for Obama:
Joe the Plumber WORKS for what he has.
This country doen’t need a President that will MANDATE nation-wide welfare for you lazy turds that want to sit back on your dead butts and let Joe work while you collect your welfare (sorry, tax break) checks.
Mark my words, when the government ends up wuith those millions of foreclosed homes, what are they gonna don with them? I’m thinking they’ll come under the authority of the ACORN Department (a new department of the federal government whose sole purpose is SPREADING THE WEALTH).
The IRS taketh away and ACORN giveth back to the most worthless of society.
227. Josh Irving | 10.16.08
When are we ever going to get over the racist thing. Here we are about to elect a Afican American President and people are still screaming racism against African Americans. I am afraid it will very hard to sell after Nov. 4. So get over it. Afirmative action should also be laid to rest now that we have a African American president. Maybe some people don’t really want it to go away and I am not talking about white racist. it appears the racist card may no longer carry any weight and those people would rather have that as a trump card.
228. gimpydwarf | 10.16.08
McCain was born to a very rich family. His family has been rich for generations. If you read his books, you will see that his family owned plantations and slaves in the south before the civil war. His view is from on top of the hill. Like a benevolent slave master, he explains that the rich owners want their slaves to be happy. That it is in their best interest to keep them happy, because they don’t work as well when they’re not. It is important to support the rich, so they can care for the poor.
As the last 8 years show, the rich don’t care about the poor. The Rich keep getting richer, and the gap between the “Haves” and the “Have Nots”continues to grow. It’s time to focus on the true middle class.
BTW: i have been self employed for the past 35 years. I have had several employees, and paid for their health insurance. I have never made over $50,000. income in a year.
229. Jimmy | 10.16.08
Well, I am an independent. This is my point of view after 3 debates;
I see McCain is really out of touch with the main stream American. We are now in the middle of recession and blink of depression. People are worry sick about their jobs, rent, house, health care, retirement saving (401K)…etc. Who care about “Joe the plumber” who can make more than $250K per year and worry for being tax or penalty for not insure his employee. I guess this must be the same guy that Palin cheering “Joe six-pack”…maverick. Don’t forget, McCain have said ” our national economy is still fundamentally strong ” just before the economy crisis begin.
I hope the majority of American are not in this group.
Obama has shown his Presidency in command. He is serious about the current economy and political issues that we are facing today. He take every opportunity to galvanize his grass root and talk about the current crisis. He is steady and cool when confronting his offensive opponent and challenging questions. Though, he might not as good as President Reagan. Yet he is the best we can get for now….
I hope if Obama win, we, the Republican, Independents & Democrats could come together and support Obama not because he is Left or Black, but because we need a President that could lead us into the next decade beyond wars and conflicts, but peaces and resolutions that the World really needs.
230. jennifer | 10.16.08
A few years back, I read an article about Walmart, describing how they gave their new employees a packet describing how to go about getting social services, like medicaid, because they get no healthcare coverage, and their wages are low enough for them to qualify for social services.
Now, I have nothing against social services. I am glad that there is a way for the poor of this country to get medical care. But I find it very disturbing that Walmart cuts prices so much that they have driven many small businesses under, and that they can do this because they pay their employees so little. This amount to a massive government subsidy wherein you & I pay for the healthcare of Walmart employees. With the income Walmart makes, they should cover their own workers!
231. ds | 10.16.08
John Randolph, nice sound bite. Is that all you can do is memorize sound bites and repeat them. You ought to be VP then, according to you and those like you.
And as far as joes shoes, and whether Obama has walked in them. If you knew Obama’s biography, you’d know that he didnt exactly have it easy. He fought his way to the top the hard way, in spite of re+ards like you.
I hope you forgot to register to vote.
232. ED | 10.16.08
First of all there are no independents. Anyone who says they are not sure is a damm liar. By now they are biased one way or the other, so lets be real. The polls are changing everyday. I seriously doubt anyone who is a republican has changed their mind. Anyone who is a democrat has not changed their mind. So who are these independents, nobody thats who. A figment of someones imagination.
233. keyrepublic | 10.16.08
Since when have we, Americans, not lived with socialist concepts? What do you call our armed forces? Police and Fire departments? FBI? DHS? Schools? Libraries? DOT? And the list goes on and on and on.
Do people really believe America lives in a purely capitalist/free market society? Really?!? Don’t misinterpret, we DO live in a capitalist/free market society BUT it’s NOT without it’s socialist components.
Also, you (those of you who keep saying you don’t want “socialism!”) do understand BOTH candidates (Obama and McCain)along with the BUSH administration has unleashed one of THE boldest socialist moves in American history with the bail out plan?! So you don’t mind funding AIG’s boondoggles for it’s executives (even when their stock is in the toilet) even when we, the taxpayers, now own an 80% stake in the company??
So before you go on some rant about how Obama will socialize the government, keep in mind that road you are driving on belongs to me…not you if you decide not participate in a socialist activity called taxes.
234. ds | 10.16.08
Jeremy, guess what, I’m white. And I’ve been donating to Obamas campaign since the primaries. I decided to vote for Obama a year ago because hes the most qualified candidate.
I couldnt agree with you more, voting because of race is rediculous. Besides, Obama is half white (for all you rednex out there).
235. CountryFirst | 10.16.08
If you think some of this is bad, here’s something more:
The public needs to know the connection between Odinga and Obama. Jerome Corsi has been investigating and has discovered some very unsettling and overwhelming evidence that the American people/voters need to be informed about.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78035
I feel that Obama is a very dangerous and unexposed person and yet has the
potential to be elected as the next American President. All of this
information, and more, needs to be quickly investigated and exposed.
Many are also wondering why Obama keeps “mum” on his official (and authentic) birth certificate - not to be confused with the “request” for a birth certificate that he has posted on his website.
Who hides their original documents when running for this office?
How did his Kenyan grandmother witness his birth? And was he adopted by his stepfather? Being born in Kenya, or adopted by his stepfather, would both disqualify Barack from being a U.S. President.
Too many documents are sealed, both here and in Kenya — and since we are
electing a person who will hold a position of extreme power, we need to know all of this. And, Barack should be more than willing to supply.
236. JayDoubleYou | 10.16.08
I’d like to inject a little logic into this debate if that’s okay with the socialists in this forum. In order for entrepreneurs to invest in creating small businesses, they have to weigh the costs and benefits. Because opening a small business is a big financial risk, one that could cost the owner’s life savings, the reward must be commensurate with the risk. If you tax a small business that makes $250,000 or more at a higher rate, it will discourage investment and stifle the economy. It’s plain and simple.
Additionally, when small businesses make decisions about expanding and hiring new employees, they have to calculate their investment hurdle rate, that is, if they expand their production or capacity, how much revenue do they need to earn to cover their costs. When tax rates go up, the “hurdle rates” also go up, meaning that revenues have to be higher to break even. This makes investments more risky, so businesses are less likely to invest in expanding their operations. What does that mean for the “little guy” that Obama claims to be supporting? It means he won’t have a job.
Trickle UP economics is illogical and is purely a political tacitc. While it is an inferior economic system, it generates wide support among middle-class and poor voters. It’s a trick, but one that democrats have used successfully for many years. It’s just sad to see that people continue to get duped by this rhetoric.
America built the most innovative and powerful economy in the world on the back of capitalism. If you want to live in a country that favors mass redistribution of wealth, move to Europe.
237. mglory | 10.16.08
dont forget Rick the Carpenter…if he is making $500k and is not taking advantage at the tax breaks, perhaps he needs to change the accountant or accounting firm he is using to do his taxes.
238. Daniel | 10.16.08
You Repubs just don’t get it. You don’t know how bad things will become if we allow McCain into office. McCain is so dumb; he attempted in the last debate to recite history and failed miserably. He said the reason we came to America was to avoid paying taxes. That is not true. We came here for religious freedom. We had war against England because we just wonted our taxes for our selves. Not going back to England where we would never benefit from them.(Most might remember Revolutionary War) So you Repubs, where do you think our tax money goes these days? To everyone else over seas, because of failed policies by the Bush Admin. Let’s get jobs back in America not in China. God Bless America!
239. Tony Cracolice | 10.16.08
The bits about racism are silly. The only way to connect Joe to racism is to presume that tap-dancing or Sammy Davis, Jr. are negatives. Tap dancing is a common mataphor for side-stepping issues. Mr. Davis was the primary practitioner, and among the most revered, during his lifetime. Lighten up! Oh wait…Darken up…Whatever.
240. Mozart Saint Cyr | 10.16.08
McCain and the Republican party don’t want you to vote for Obama because he hangs out with Bill Ayer. Now I wonder if McCain is suffuring a heart Attack and Bill Ayer is the only one around: would McCain agree for Bill A. to take him to the hospital? Or would he say, “I am sorry Bill, don’t touch me because you are a domestic theorist, let me die”.
What I don’t understand is what would what Bill Ayer did 30 years ago matters today if everything that he does now reflects the good of the country and the American people? Bill Ayer does more good now for America than more than half of politicians out there in the pass 15 to 20 years. What he did was wrong, but he’s now a change man.
241. eric | 10.16.08
Where has America gone? No longer is someone responsible for their own welfare. Me and my family have worked hard our whole life. We worked hard in grade school because we knew we wanted a better life then the slackers. We worked hard at our jobs because we knew we wanted a move up in positions and pay classes. If any of you think I worked full time and went to college for 8 hours a day (16 hour total plus homework) so that Mr. Slack-off could ride my coat tails you are dreaming.
Working hard should not be punished, it should be rewarded. The money you earn should be the money you keep. Wow what a crazy concept, right. You hear from small children all the time “Thats not fair!” Grow up people! Life is not fair and you should not be taking from someone else because you slacked off in school or at your job. When I’m driving along with my kids and we see a homeless person, I’ll stop and give them food if I have any. While driving away I say to my kids “Thats what happens when you don’t work hard enough in life.” Harsh, yes but true. Those whole fail in life should be the examples for our children of what not to do. Its a sink or swim world. If you don’t want to put in the effort to swim I say sink. Be thankful you live in this day in age. Back in the day if you didn’t hunt or farm like your life depended on it you and your family starved to death. To many lazy people in this country. Get off your butts and earn your own money instead of trying to take someone else’s. No 40 year old flipping burgers says “gee, I did everything right in life, why am I here?”
Oh and health care is not a right, its a perk for working hard. Just like owning a home or owning a car. It sure is nice but its not entitled to you like free speech. No where in the constitution does it say we have the right to a Heath plan. If your work does not offer a health care plan, oh here’s an idea, GO FIND ANOTHER JOB.
242. James Patterson | 10.16.08
A special note for Steve, the guy that wants to go to Australia. I think you have a good idea going, but perhaps I could offer a suggestion for a bit of a modification. I would be the last to stop you from going to Australia, but you are obviously ignorant… to a few things. First of all, Australians basically hate Americans, especially what America has come to stand for the last 8 years. They are not alone in that opinion of the US’s foreign policies, most of the world hates us since the republicans have been in the whitehouse. I think a better idea, would be for you, and all your buddies to move to Texas. There is plenty of room there for the whole flock of ignorant loyalist such as yourself. There, you can lick your wounds from Americans taking their country back from the blockheads that have held her for ransome and fleeced every possible source of wealth they could find. This would allow patriots to right the American ship from loyalist dips like you. People with attitudes like you would have their butt kicked in just about any country you’d try pulling your right wing swagger in. Texas (with the exception of Austin) loves folks like you, and I’d personally like the place better with you gone. If you don’t like America Steve, please don’t let the door hit you in the butt on your way to Texas. America is going to be reclaimed, get over it, and send us a postcard from wherever you go.
243. John in FL | 10.16.08
It’s amazing how many people actually BELIEVE their own fear-mongering re Obama! “He’s going to bring socialism!” What a joke! You’re probably the first one to say how “whimpy” Democrats are…yet you’re ready to make Obama into a “dictator”! You should note that it’s the free-market ideologues who are rushing for the US Government to bail out and take ownership in US private banks! Are you going to call the Bush Administration “socialist”? If anything, we’ll have socialism for the wealthy, where the most wealthy are being sustained by US taxpayers! I agree that Pelosi and Reid have been ineffective… in my opinion they had no spine, and should have lived up to their constitutional obligation and moved to “impeach” President Bush! Sincerely, when you lie to the American people, invade a country who didn’t attack us, at an enormous personal and economic cost, you should (at least) be impeached! House Republicans impeached Clinton for lying about an affair!
244. Ken | 10.16.08
Personally I don’t think there should be any tax cuts, and that the tax rate should
be rolled back to the reagan era at least, if not more, because during Reagan/Bush
our debt increased from around 30% of our GDP to around 65%. During Bush II
it increased from around 58% to 70%. That’s Republican trickle down and spend and borrow. But as you can see trickle down really never worked (because our tax revenue didn’t increase as much as our spending). The rich got richer, and not much trickled down, and yet we kept on spending and getting more in debt, a debt that every american tax payer, rich or poor has hanging over them. Everyone in this country benefits from the services that taxes pay, but we have to start actually paying for them, and not borrowing. 20 years of republican trickle down experiments haven’t worked to fund our deficit budget. or lower our debt. So how do we fix this?? Of course we have to reduce spending, and yes we have to raise taxes. Raising taxes is a bit of a dis-incentive, but I wish I were in the tax brackets were this come into play. I’m middle class, and I haven’t gotten myself into unmanageable debt. I work hard and pay my far share, and at this point can afford to pay more, and wouldn’t mind doing it, because I think that the services that my taxes pay, for the most part, are worth it and contribute to the greatness of america. Yes there is corruption and waste, and these need to be fixed, but
we have to come together as american’s and realize that we have to start paying for the benefits that this country affords us.
245. Pete in Miami | 10.16.08
The best thing about Obama being elected is that the USA will be seen as a beacon of hope for ALL of its citizens; Obama will be given the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT an respect of all world leaders!!! Obama as President will be an operational recruitment nightmare for Al Qaeda!!! They won’t have the white, right-wing guy to point to anymore!!! Look, I travel a lot around the world, and they want the USA to lead…but with a very bright, youthful President who projects a new image to the world.
246. gimpydwarf | 10.16.08
McCain’s family has been very rich for generations. He has spent his entire life in the military or politics. he has never had to earn anything (Except re-election) in his life. He can not even imagine what it’s like to raise a family of 4 on $35,000. per year.
He thinks the rich take care of the poor. The reality is, the poor take care of the poor, and the rich get richer on the back of the poor. The last 8 years has proven this.
It’s time to rethink America. It time to bring back those thoughts we had in the 60s, of Peace, Unity and Prosperity.
And Finally, it time to show this country of immigrants, that the color of your skin, or the birth place of your parents, does not eliminate you from a place in America’s history.
PS; I’m white, I’m 50+, I’m a Vietnam Vet, I own my own business, and I’m voting for O’bama.
247. Earl E The Lost City | 10.16.08
Since my last company was sold by the owner so he could pay his pro-sports franchise players more money to bail themselves out of jail for drugs and weapons violations, the 2000 of us laid off after 28 years at the bank hit the streets with dimmed prospects of finding another job.
The company that bought us failed to keep the profits and the stock dropped from 40 to 1.50 a share.
28 Year single moms on the street, no benefits, and the pro-atheletes got pay raises, the seller of the bank put 75 million into his half-billion estate.
John McCain, who left his crippled wife for a millionairess beuaty queen, who used her charity to buy drugs to support her own habit will simply jettison me, this 4 times laid off x-military unemployed person into the trash can with Mary, John’s crippled x-wife.
The fundamentals of America are broken.
Putting a divorced man in the whityhouse is a vote for someone who goes back on the most sacred oath this society holds, marriage vows before God.
Why would we even consider someone who has proven their inabilty to deal with adversity and loss, and instead dives into money face first?
Because we live in denial. Denial of an invasion in Iraq, denial of wholsale slaughter of women and children, denial that it was specifically for oil profits…
Where is your anger at that, America? Denial.
248. Dabnis | 10.16.08
What would it take to get ol’ Ron Paul back in the race? Ok, I know that just can’t happen but it’s a shame he didn’t get enough backing when he needed it most.
It looks like Obama will indeed take the seat but it sure ain’t based on intelligent voters who research and seek facts when voting.
249. foyhasi | 10.16.08
F tap dancing, I want to see a break dancing competition, winner gets the white house.
How does one win a break dancing competition when they cant lift their hands over their elbows?
Obama wins by default.
Palin retires to a world of dancing in rap videos, where she belongs.
250. Phil | 10.16.08
What’s going on here? I’ve heard 3 separate and conflicting things about Joe the plumber, some from Joe himself.
Is Joe’s personal income $250,000 per year?
Are Joe’s business revenues $250,000 per year?
Is Joe trying to buy a business for $250-270,000?
Joe, please get your story straight.
251. jefflz | 10.16.08
Katie Couric interviewed Joe the plumber and he is a Republican who spouts all the Republican talking points like the off shore drilling mantra. He makes less than $250K and would not pay more under Obama’s plan. For a key debate McCain used one of his own supporters to act as a prop. This is typical McCain theatrics and when you pull away the curtain- it is all smoke and mirrors. McCain is going down for good reason.
252. Bronson | 10.16.08
Does anyone doubt that McCain, if elected, would start another war, borrow from the Chinese to fund the war, and put more strain on our exhausted military? He’s practically calling for a war with Iran before taking office.
Vote Obama and restore our standing in the world.
253. evilTerrorist | 10.16.08
Joes Taxes - If he is talking about his business making Net Profits of 250K a year then he is going to pay more, if it is gross sorry but he will have write offs and will not be taxed.
Joes Health Care - Doesn’t matter, neither McCain or Obama could get this legislation through congress with enough votes to make it law. In the end the Politicians cannot afford to vote yes on a Universal Health Care act because there are enough people that view that as socialism. (Read stupid below)
Energy - McCain and Obama call for Alternative Energy policies that will produce jobs etc etc etc. When the underlying problem with these WORD are that #1 It will take at best 3 years to bring the first Nuclear power plant online. That is assuming they build it on Federal Land in the middle of no-where because if they don’t they will have to fight in court for years to force the community they build the thing in to go along with it. Not to mention no one says anything about clean nuclear, are we going to recycle the waste or are we going with the old style place it in a barrel and dump it in a field where homes are going to be built in 40 years?
254. JayDoulbeYou | 10.16.08
I’d like to inject a little logic into this debate if that’s okay with the socialists in this forum. In order for entrepreneurs to invest in creating small businesses, they have to weigh the costs and benefits. Because opening a small business is a big financial risk, one that could cost the owner’s life savings, the reward must be commensurate with the risk. If you raise taxes small businesses that make $250,000 or more, you will discourage investment and stifle the economy. It’s plain and simple.
Additionally, when existing small businesses make decisions about expanding and hiring new employees, they have to calculate their investment hurdle rate, that is, if they expand their production or capacity, how much revenue do they need to earn to cover their costs. When tax rates go up, “hurdle rates” also go up, meaning that revenues have to be higher to break even. This makes investments more risky, so businesses are less likely to invest in expanding their operations. What does that mean for the “little guy” that Obama claims to be supporting? It means he’s more likely to get laid off when the economy dips into recession or, if he’s already unemployed, it will make it harder for him to find a job.
Trickle up economics is illogical and is purely a political tactic. While it is an inferior economic system, it generates wide support among middle-class and poor voters – even though many of those voters will actually be hurt the MOST by these policies in the form of layoffs. It’s a trick, but one that democrats have used successfully for many years. It’s just sad to see that people continue to get duped by this rhetoric.
America built the most innovative and powerful economy in the world on the back of capitalism. If you favor the mass redistribution of wealth, go watch Robin Hood or move to Europe, but please do the country a favor and don’t get involved in politics.
255. Erik | 10.16.08
I do not have a combined family income of even $150,000. However, I make 6-figues and don’t want people ‘in my pocket’. I am sorry for those less fortunate – though I should not have to apologize or be penalized for my hard work. I have 4-kids and work 60+ hours a week to earn the money I make. Obama (and others) trivialize people who make a lot of personal income. We work very hard – often after most have long left for the day. Our stress is that of other peoples welfare (If I fail at my job – many other people loose their jobs). That is why high-income jobs require qualifications and track records of success far beyond that of most.
However, as a $100,000+ household, my debt and bills are most likely at the same debt to income ratio as a family making $30,000. That is; my mortgage, car payments, taxes, food, gas, school supplies, etc… all leave me living paycheck to paycheck. Granted, I may have a bigger house, fancier cars, etc… but that is why I work the extra hours – to provide a better life my kids (and yes, me). Again, I have no remorse for stating that simple fact. Is that not part of the American Dream – to provide a better life for your family?
256. Tina | 10.16.08
The bottom line is we will elect a President; however, after the fact we have no say on how this country is ran! They all lie, not just McCain. They will all say whatever it takes to get to the office. It’s ridiculous to say that any of these candidates are a joke. These people are highly educated and know the business. It’s also ridiculous to say because plumber Joe stated NObama was tap dancing around like Sammy Davis Jr. is racist. Come on people get something better to do with your time.
257. Prof | 10.16.08
Post 115 and 164 are completely correct in an economic sense. You have to look at the numbers. Obama and his advisors are just manipulating the numbers. What Obama’s plan will do will actually hurt every single taxpayer, not help.
258. Unwit | 10.16.08
So, because he’s going to pay an extra $750 per twenty-five thousand dollars extra profit over $250K, Joe Plumber is not going to buy the business?
Is Joe claiming that the extra $750 tax bill is going to prevent him from getting credit?
Has Joe been working so constantly that he has somehow not heard that the stock market has crashed, banks are terrified to lend money even to each other, and so credit is already much, much harder to get and will be for who knows how long?
259. Mike | 10.16.08
Proof that European and more specifically socialist countries pay more in income tax (10-30% more than we do):
Based on a “Mean Income Tax Rates in the Year 2005 as a Percentage of Income by Country” found on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg
Personal Income Tax rates are higher in: Switzerland, Canada, United Kingdom, Luxembourg, Portugal, Norway, Slovakia, Netherlands, Greece, Spain, Denmark, Turkey, Poland, Czech Republic, Finland, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Hungary, France, Germany, Belgium
On top of that The United States already has the second highest Corporate Income Tax rates as only Japan had higher rates.
* These numbers were for 2005
260. pretzel | 10.16.08
If Obama is a socialist, then so is McCain. Didn’t both Obama and McCain support this bailout (requested by the current Republican administration) which is nationalizing many of out major financial institutions?
261. keyrepublic | 10.16.08
For those of us who own small businesses (well I would put mine in the small - medium size bucket - gross income over $25 million), this “Joe Plumber” media hype is really a sideshow since federal government really has less impact on independent businesses than people realize. Plus if you have a savvy business acumen and hire a really good tax accountant (emphasis on the latter), you can deal with almost any type of “new tax” our great government imposes on small businesses.
For those entrepreneurs who think a McCain administration will HELP you or will leave you alone, think again. Unless you happen to call your business oh say, Wal-Mart or Sears Holding Corp, or any other multi-billion dollar business you WILL pay more (this also being true under an Obama administration) - this coming from my very smart tax accountant and his firm.
Listen, we are HURTING as a country and it will take ALL of us to mend the problems that BOTH parties have created and part of the mending is (whether you like it or not) an increase in taxes. So somehow thinking we, the people, are not going to have to share the burden of this mess if we elect one person over another is delusional! I just happen to feel Obama is at least honest about what he’s proposing (even if I don’t like hearing it).
Personally while I’m interested in the Presidential debate, I am more interested in my local elections since these are the people I get to talk to more often (and can carry my concerns and wishes to Washington). I don’t know about any of you who are posting, but I’m not connected enough to talk to the POTUS.
262. gimpydwarf | 10.16.08
an aspect that isn’t being mentioned is that even if Obama is a mediocre president, just having him in office will do wonders for healing race relations in this country. We have been struggling for decades over this issue. It will also show the world we are not just talking out our butts, when we talk about equality. It’s time for visible change.
By the way: I’m white, I’m 50+, I’m a volunteer Vietnam Vet, I own my own business, and I’m voting for O’bama.
263. Carrie | 10.16.08
Would someone please tell me who will hurt my family less: my husband is a small business owner. I don’t know how much his business makes because I don’t look at his books (it might be $250K, but I don’t know), but he personally pays himself less than I get paid, and I’m a public school teacher, so I’m not paid well. I tend to believe if he could pay himself more, he would, because he knows I would like to quit my job (and let’s not even get into public education issues–but hurrah for Obama who said parents are a key part of education). He does not provide health insurance for his employees, because when he looked into it, it was too expensive. So he does not provide, through his company, health insurance for himself. He pays, out of our personal account, for a policy for himself and our children, and I happily take what my employer offers me. So, who should someone like me vote for? Who hurts my family less?
264. The Facts, the things mcain doesnt know | 10.16.08
Who is going to help me pay for the rest of college, Obama will. During the bush administration (supported by mcain) our country has taken a flaming tailspin, the worst economic depression, the longest war, and ridiculous policies set by mcain bush. Obama Knows the facts, mcain makes them up.
Obama is clearly the only choice for president.
265. Sam | 10.16.08
Who is going to help me?
I didn’t go to college, dropped out in the 7th grade.
I don’t want to work.
I don’t want to pay taxes.
I want my 3 kids to go to college and be doctors or presidents.
I’m all for abortion, it should be free.
I live in Chicago where more people die every day than Iraq, but Bush don’t care about that.
Obama, look what Bush has done to us. Help!
Bush lied and the war for oil is killing all 3 of my baby’s momma’s jobs.
My SUV only get 8 miles to the gallon. This aint right. This country is treating us middle-class like dogs. I’m going to have to move to Austria if Obama doesn’t help me soon.
November 5th, I’ll be looking for my Obama won money.
Yeah, Obama we are finally gonna stick it to the MAN!
266. Common Sense | 10.16.08
I’m glad we all live in a country where we have the right to chose. Most of us can grow up to run and be President. I’m also glad we have the chance to voice our opinion without fear of the secert police kicking in the door and dragging you off after tracking your down you IP address. (But they may read your email and listen in on your overseas calls, but that is off the point.)
Finally I hate to break this to some of you; but some people who don’t support Obama are prejustice and the same goes for some people don’t support McCain.
But focus on those few people who call Joe plumber racist (first they don’t really understand the term racist or racism) is just as nuts as people focusing on the many white peole you can find on youtube calling Obama the N-word, muslim, or a terrorist.
I’m amazed that some people are shocked, that people can find racism in some comments. But these same people don’t want to acknowledge the idiots in Denver with guns and plans to kill Obama.
They would like to ignore the convservative pro-family group that was selling Obama waffles. So please don’t act like people are throwing race into the Presidental race just for the sake of it.
I say we ignore the idiots on both of the race fence and focus on the facts. Race is a issue in our country and will continue to be.
I would love to see the turn out of the Rep party ever gets a African-American to represent their party as a candidate for President. Would Colin Powell be a terrorist, socailist, or a serect anti-American Muslin in Christian clothing?
I dare say some life long Rep would find something wrong with Colin Powell only based on the color of his skin. But the more time we focus on these people (of all colors) the more time is wasted.
267. Chris | 10.16.08
Go ahead Sam, move to Austria. One less lazy person us taxpayers would not have to support!
268. Jim M | 10.16.08
This is for Mark #50. Yes indeed Russia has a 13% flat income tax. And….. let’s not forget their social security 26% and as of Oct 1 there was talk of increasing it to 32%. When we get the cards on the table - all the income deductions then we have an honest view,but not until. BTW, I lived in Russia nine years. Believe me you do not want the socialism that is coming or at least being promised by both candidates. Obama more quickly than McCain. And it looks as if Russia’s 1998 curency crash is coming our way. Pass the shortages, deficit and milk at three times the price in trhee weeks, anyone?? I’ve spent 16 years of my adult life in socialist countries - it’s paid for off the top (income) and the bottom Value added, sales, property, etc.
A friend in one of those had a heart problem which required sugery. He waited eight years. But…. the problem rendered him unqualified for his work, so he was put on disability. The Brits say, ” You get real medical attention when you are on your death bed.” The Russians say “Free medical care isn’t worth a kopeck (cent). I had friends whose families took food to the hospital — daily. I visited a guy whose bedding had not been changed in three weeks. Another occasion I visited a man who said the toilets looked like they had never been cleaned. And the Canadians come to the USA becuae of their inept socialized medicine. And we want that kind of system??? Is it naievity or stupidity????
The government has to roles justice system and defense. When it goes outside of those constricts, it turns too…. well it’s like a opolitican speaking…. It looks like the back end of my horse…. and we all know what happens there!!!! We are not naive now are we???
269. Lynn | 10.16.08
I am not a racist, but from what I read it seems that 98% of African Americans will be voting in this election. That is amazing since in previous elections, this percentage number had been very low. I think the majority of African Americans are not really looking at each candidate’s stand on the issues; taxes, abortion, energy, etc., and just want an African American in the W.H. That would also be the case with Latinos if the candidate were a Latino. But let’s not look at the color of their skins (and it goes both ways) but what positives they can bring to this country.
This person will have a great effect on our lives for the next 4 years. Don’t vote AGAINST a party - vote for the best prepared and experienced candidate. I am an independent and am still sitting on the fence and will probably make up my mind the last week.
270. Dean | 10.16.08
Kindly compare Obama’s ideas of “spreading the wealth around” with Marx’s plan (”from each according to his means, to each according to his needs”). Do we really want this?
271. gmarie | 10.16.08
#185 - Wrong. Our country was designed by our founding fathers to be a Republic NOT a Social Democracy. It has been corrupted over the many years by politicians that wanted the position to further their own standing devoid of the altruistic belief in furthering and supporting the infrastructure of this nation which is it’s people. I am a true conservative. I don’t want the government doing anything other than what it was initially intended when the aforementioned people gave up everything to begin it. Regardless of who I vote for, it will not be a vote FOR it will be a vote against whoever I believe will be the most destructive to my well being.
272. Mark Stouffer | 10.16.08
Is that why you will be voting for Obama? So that he can take money from rich people and give it to you? Because you can’t figure out how to earn money fairly? Now you are even steeling from a plumber? I hope your toilet backs up while you are typeing this. Plumbers are people too.
Rich people already pay most of the payroll taxes in the US. We are already charging rich people more. %30 of householdes pay no taxes (so Obama is incorect that he will reduce taxes for %95 of households).
People in here should find out more about taxation before electing a president instead of just complaining that they are not as rich as Joe. Remember there are many people poorer than you and when Obama’s stupid wealth redistribution scheme fails it may be your door they come knocking on. It’s happened before!
273. TB | 10.16.08
OH! Is Obama black?! When I watch him on TV, I don’t see a black man. I see a man who has different political view from mine. I’d say those who vote for ‘O’ b/c he is black are just as racist as those who vote for ‘M’ b/c he is white. I’m so sick of the race card being thrown in our faces just b/c we don’t agree w/ the ‘O’ camp.
274. Tony Cracolice | 10.17.08
#280 Dean; That’s also the early Christian economic system. The Emperor Julian whined that the Christians were feeding his poor too. Jesus says to give to “everyone who asks” and to “lend without expecting to get it back.” These also run in the face of capitalist claptrap, despite polls showing most Americans believe themselves Christian. Socialism is a buzz word used to scare folks into thinking we’re headed for the USASSR. Rubbish. This ain’t 1776, or even 1976. Times are changing. If we stop making the almighty buck the center of our moral lives, everyone will benefit.
276. Scotty | 10.17.08
Lynn @ 279 said: “I am not a racist…… I think the majority of African Americans are not really looking at each candidate’s stand on the issues; taxes, abortion, energy, etc., and just want an African American in the W.H. That would also be the case with Latinos if the candidate were a Latino…….I am an independent and am still sitting on the fence”
You sure you’re an “independent”, Lynn?
277. Lynn | 10.17.08
I am not looking at the color of their skin or what party they represent. I want to make sure that the person I vote for will be the right person looking out for everyone’s well-being. I am weighing the issues and each candidate’s views on those issues and I wish that everyone would do the same regardless of race, creed or political affiliation.
278. Scotty | 10.17.08
Lynn, commendable as the thought may be, I don’t think a president can look out for everyone’s well being: Some people need a lot of looking after, while others are *clearly* able to look out for themselves. I think the best we can hope for is someone who can look after the health of the USA as a *whole* (which is absolutely not the same as making every single ‘Me!’ happy).
To your point that certain races have an affinity for their own candidate; that may appear true on a superficial level. Using myself as an example, however, it is clearly not true. In any case, everyone is free to vote as they see fit. You and I can try to persuade others, but ultimately everyone has a free and equal vote. One of the great things about this country.
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Jimmy Orr has worked in politics for the majority of his professional career working for two U.S. Senators, two Governors and one President. Most recently, Orr served as White House Spokesman and Internet Director for President George W. Bush and Special Advisor to Governor Schwarzenegger for Internet Communications.
David Cook is Washington bureau chief of The Christian Science Monitor and host of the Monitor's newsmaker breakfasts. He was the Monitor's editor from 1994 to 2001. Cook is a graduate of Principia College, served in the U.S. Army, was a Bagehot Fellow at Columbia University, and is a member of the Gridiron Club, Washington's oldest journalistic organization.
1. Independent in FL | 10.16.08
It was sickening to watch Obama constantly laughing-off serious questions that McCain raised. Does Obama really understand how serious this job is, and just how dangerous this world has become? He just doesn’t seem to get it.