(Jake Turcotte)
Whew… Obama can still be President - Supreme Court declines case
By Jimmy Orr | 12.08.08
Whew…
Good news for Barack Obama fans. It turns out that the $750 million he raised to become President paid off. He can still be President of the United States (even if he does smoke a cigarette now and then).
Supreme Court
The Supreme Court has decided not to hear a lawsuit challenging Barack Obama’s citizenship. Here’s a copy of the document.
This means if you are traveling out to see his inauguration, don’t cancel your plane tickets just yet. It appears the ceremonies are still on.
No tinfoil
The suit, filed by Leo Donofrio of East Brunswick, N.J., charged that Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen.
Now, he’s not one of those tinfoil-hat wearing people who claim Obama was born in Indonesia. He acknowledges that the President-elect was born in Hawaii.
Then what’s all the confusion? As far as we can tell, Hawaii was still admitted to the Union in 1959. And Barack Obama was born in 1961 (in Hawaii). Sure, we’re not rocket scientists here at The Vote (although some people think we think Germany bombed Pearl Harbor), but it seems kosher to us.
Clarity
What does Donofrio allege?
Obama had dual nationality at birth. His father was a British subject at the time of his birth and his mother was a U.S. citizen.
Donofrio outlines his argument concisely on his blog in a letter to ABC News:
The main argument of my law suit alleges that since Obama was a British citizen - at birth - a fact he admits is true, then he cannot be a “natural born citizen”. The word “born” has meaning. It deals with the status of a presidential candidate “at birth”.
Obama had dual nationality at birth. The status of the candidate at the time of the election is not as relevant to the provisions of the Constitution as is his status “at birth.” If one is not “born” a natural born citizen, he can never be a natural born citizen.”
Never say never
Just like James Bond, Donofrio is not one to never say never again even if tomorrow never comes. There are two other cases at the Supreme Court.
Donofrio has his eye on the Wrotnowski v. Connecticut Secretary of State case. He worked on this case.
Says Donofrio:
“If [Wrotonowski’s] application is also denied then the fat lady can sing. Until then, the same exact issue is before [the Supreme Court] as was in my case. [Wrotonowski’s] application before [the Supreme Court] incorporates all of the arguments and law in mine, but we improved on the arguments in [Wrotonowski’s] quite a bit as we had more time to prepare it. “
What next?
No word on when the other cases might get attention. But so far, so good for Barack Obama. Although some conspiracists may find it interesting that Joe Biden hasn’t resigned from his Senate seat yet…
By the way, had John McCain won, we’d likely see the same thing happening. Donofrio claims that McCain isn’t eligible for the office as well.
<< Obama admits he hasn’t totally kicked the cigarette habit | MainComments
3. Sherry S | 12.08.08
Here is the better case before the Supreme Court. Basically the same arguement but with more teeth..
No. 08A469
Title:
Cort Wrotnowski, Applicant
v.
Susan Bysiewicz, Connecticut Secretary of State
Docketed:
Lower Ct: Supreme Court of Connecticut
Case Nos.: (SC 18264)
~~~Date~~~ ~~~~~~~Proceedings and Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nov 25 2008 Application (08A469) for stay and/or injunction, submitted to Justice Ginsburg.
Nov 26 2008 Application (08A469) denied by Justice Ginsburg.
Nov 29 2008 Application (08A469) refiled and submitted to Justice Scalia.
Dec 8 2008 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of December 12, 2008.
Dec 8 2008 Application (08A469) referred to the Court by Justice Scalia.
source: http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a469.htm
5. Bill Tracy | 12.08.08
I don’t blame Mr. Biden for not resigning from the Senate and I am surprised Mr. Obama did it so early, since we the people don’t vote for president or vice president. We won’t truly know who the next president will be until the Electoral College votes on December 15. So right now Mr. Obama is a private citizen.
6. OldGuyInCalif | 12.08.08
Yes, he is a tin-foil hat wearing nut. Or at the least someone who needs to take up a less foolish hobby. Perhaps tricycle racing?
8. angel | 12.08.08
What’s wrong with Mr. Denofrio? Our nation is going through a crises and he is attempting to create more problems. Can not Mr. Denofrio spend his time and money in constructive and positive issues that are in the best interest of the nation? Is the honest reason behind the so called lawsuit the fact that President Elect Barack Obama is African American? Get over it denofrio, some of us are more concern in the best interest of the nation than you ridiculous lawsuit.
9. KD | 12.08.08
I wish Obama’s Legal team would seek to make an example of all those who filed suite and sue them for slander, malicious defamation of character,libel and then drag them through the court system. They called him a liar. He was telling the truth as far as the law is concerned. Lunatics they are to believe that the whole US justice system failed. That the DNC failed. That even McCain and Palin were idiots to let Obama ruin his chances of being elected President and VP of the US. Well Maybe they were, but not for that reason.
10. Philly Lawyer | 12.08.08
Let’s think about this one. George Washington, our first president, was a British citizen when he was born BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES DID NOT YET EXIST WHEN HE WAS BORN.
11. Trey | 12.08.08
To the best of my knowledge, anyone born to a citizen of the U. S. is automatically a citizen of the U. S., no matter where they are born–the location has nothing to do with it if one (or both) of your parents is a citizen. (That’s why it is a “dual” citizenship–because his father was British, so is he.)
12. Too Much Time | 12.08.08
You people have way too much time on your hands.. why on earth would you try and put the country through additional stress and turmoil by trying to raise this suit. This is so beyond ridiculous, why don’t you spend your time on a worthwhile cause, like New Jersey property taxes or helping homeowners who are facing foreclosure…
This is nothing more than a few nitwits trying to prove their intelligent and can do a little research. Clearly a case for “educated beyond your intelligence”
14. Hugo Giovanni Felix | 12.08.08
First and foremost, any person who borns in US lands, he/she is automatically American citizen. Obama, born in Hawaii in 1961. Hawaii became integrant part of US in 1959.
In addition to, his mom was an American citizen, but his dad born in Keny, under the British Colony, and his gran-dad became UK citizen because he fought under Union Jacket during the WW II.
There are two big problems on basis of ethnic origins, naturelalized are not considered to be the citizens of new nationality and Christian fait.
Hugo
15. Ed Weirdness | 12.08.08
The entire argument in such cases could easily have been addressed by Senator Obama by releasing the so-called “vault copy” of his birth certificate for public scrutiny. Hawaii officials contend that the COLB (Certificate of Live Birth) that has thus far been produced is sufficient to address reasonable questions that have come up.
The fact that Hawaii see’s fit to provide several documents all intent on demonstrating proof of birth, raises questions in and of itself. Refusal by President Elect Obama to address this issue in a meaningful, responsible way (i.e. releasing the “vault copy” of his actual birth certificate) is unconscionable, and raises far too many questions.
That the SCOTUS saw this as “a potato to hot to handle” is indeed and insult to the Constitution these Justices purport to protect, and comes as a slap in the face of America’s Citizens. The issue of Mr. Obama’s qualification to serve at POTUS are not insignificant. His legitimacy to serve as POTUS should not be “swept under the rug”, particularly when all that is required would be for Mr. Obama to render the :vault copy” of his birth certificate. An effort that many first time job applicants make everyday!
No one is suggesting that Democrats will be denied the power they so desperately covet, as Joe Biden would doubtless fill the breach should it be determined that Barack Obama is indeed no qualified by reason of citizenship to serve as President. Better to cough up the birth certificate, than for Mr. Obama to enter office under a cloud of illegitimacy!
16. Gerard | 12.08.08
Thanks Donofrio for wasting the Courts valuable time.
You must be short the market…
17. Danny | 12.08.08
I love how everyone for Obama acts as if they can’t be bothered to check into this.
They just want Obama…like a buncha’ ****** zombies!
I’m sick of it already!
18. Chad | 12.08.08
All you Dems think the Bush Crime regime was the end need to wake up. Clinton and others played the same games. It would not make a difference if Obamas president or not. The same agendas get pushed through either way. Does anything in the cabinet lineup sound like change- or is it that we just got a new paintjob on the same old POS car we been driving since LBJ.
19. Ray | 12.08.08
What a loser. I’m glad the SCOTUS rejected the case and it’s too bad they didn’t add a comment stating clearly that the case is utterly without merit. (And boy, does Clarence Thomas look foolish for giving Donofrio the time of day.)
First of all, there is no such thing as a “British citizen” - they are called British subjects. Secondly, Obama’s father was Kenyan. Thirdly - oh, what’s the use. The dead-enders keeping this foolishness alive are totally divorced from reality.
20. Me | 12.08.08
idiots and idiots on top of idiots. makes a nice pile. Boo hiss. If I still smoked I would lite it.
21. DGV | 12.08.08
Ray, you just made yourself look like an idiot. - there is no such thing as “Kenyan” in 1960. It was British! I advise some history lessons, and no talking on the big-boy forums.
23. Moria Mclean | 12.08.08
“natural born”? Does that mean he was a test tube baby?
(mischevious smile)
Seriously, who are these people that waste our courts time?
24. BillDingle | 12.08.08
Is there a bailout for those of us who can’t afford a new tux for the inauguration? I get to keep my bailed out house and drive my bailed out car and put the trip on my credit card at my bailed out bank. Why can’t I have a bailed out tux? Is someone afraid I will show up to work in my tux at my new bailed out infrastructure job or at the hospital using my new bailed out health insurance? I want a bailed out tux.
25. Raskolnikov | 12.08.08
It’s nice to see our courts are still a forum for the petty complaints of sore losers. Epic fail.
26. NJ Citizen | 12.08.08
For people who might want to learn more about how the term “natural born citizen” was defined at the time the Constitution was written, it was in the 1758 “Law of Nations” and the “law of nations” was referenced elsewhere in the Constitution.
Chapter XIX, paragraph 212, “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.”
It was a very patrimonial concept, just as the later U.K. 1948 law mentioned on Obama’s website conferred citizenship to children born outside the U.K. or its colonies through a father to his offspring.
The 2000 case of Bush v. Gore brought forward a lot of history and scholarship to determine Constitutional meaning. If this “natural born citizen” phrase is someday decided, it will likely do the same. McCain would also be ineligible because he was born “out of the country” and Calero was never a contender for eligibility. He is mentioned in Wiki as still holding only a green card allowing him to be in the U.S., and is still a citizen of Nicaragua.
27. mrahm | 12.08.08
I think that this Donofrino needs to find a hobby. I mean does he really want to listen to another two years of bickering about who the best candidate to run the country is? I think that the majority rules and most American citizens are glad that the election season is over and that the lame duck is finally leaving the office so that America can get back on track. So, no matter whether it was McCain or Obama who was to win the election, people will still complain. One thing that I am sure that we can all agree (unless we have the I.Q. of a carrot) is that somebody, anybody will do a better job than Bushy.
28. Bruce Becker | 12.08.08
Item 14 Ed Weirdness is typical of the genre. If someone provides more info than they want, its a problem. If they dont provide it on the day they expected it, its a problem. It is impossible for Ed 14 to reconcile the fact that 52% of the voters choose a person of mixed race and culture with an Ivy league education instead of John whitebread and sarah wrong and lying about it.
29. cm grigg | 12.08.08
Hate to break it to you guys but we kinda fought a war over this. American law trumps British law round these parts. Nice try though. Also, when did the Christian Science Monitor start following presidential bad habits? Bush is off the wagon and he chews tobacco. How about some glib comments on those facts and the fact that he smoked Cuban cigars in the white house with Saudi Prince Bandar.
30. Frank | 12.08.08
I am laughing at the absurdity of all this. Get over it Mr. Obama is an AMERICAN, son of an African man and he is our President!:) Stop the ignorance and bitterness.
32. Paul | 12.08.08
This election is a done deal and we need to move on.However…
Actually, Kenya did not get its independence from Britain until December, 1963. Still, Kenyans of that time would be called British subjects because only natural born Britons are British citizens.
33. Mark | 12.08.08
There seems to be so little criticisms against president-elect Obama at moment, not necessarily because he’s not yet sworn in but because he has assembled his administration team with those names which would’ve given critics the voice to chasten him. Hillary, Bill Richardson and Joe Biden are those names. Who says Obama isn’t smart?
35. Me | 12.08.08
Obama could have put this whole thing to rest months ago by authorizing the release of the actual birth certificate from the state of Hawaii, this would have ended everything. Obama has no one to blame but himself.
36. Againststatusquo | 12.08.08
I am with chad (#17) on this one. what the heck is going on? Clinton as the sec. of state? Are you kidding me?
How could Obama put the woman who wants to obliterate iran in charge and yet negotiate with Iran ? Does this look sound policy to you ? Isn’t that the real question here rather than his citizenship ?
BTW, Chad, what do you mean since LBJ, Kennedy started the Vietnam war, his admin. was intent in overthrowing Castro, and before that,
I’d say Thomas Jefferson was the one who sharply disagreed with the status quo of US foreign policy.
37. Scotty | 12.08.08
I think it’s okay for him to challenge this now. Better it’s put to bed *now* than allowed to fester in some people’s minds for the next eight years. Donofrio just might be doing us all a favor.
Anyway, I think it was Bono who said, “America is not just a country, it’s an idea”. As far as I’m concerned, Obama gets the *idea* that is America.
And that trumps an overwrought examination of birthplace geography in my book.
38. transparency please | 12.08.08
Hawaiians applying for their state’s “Home Lands” program are strongly encouraged by the Hawaiian government to submit the “original Certificate of Live Birth” instead of the “computer-generated Certification of Live Birth.”The computer-generated form — the same document President-elect Obama is using to defend his status as a natural born citizen — is not sufficient for the Home Lands program. Quoting their website: “Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.”
It seems reasonable that the documentary requirements to substantiate holding the office of the President of the United States should be at least as stringent as the requirements for Hawaii’s “Home Lands” program. Maybe Obama is not hiding anything. Maybe he is a natural born citizen. Maybe there is nothing embarrassing on the original Certificate of Live Birth. But that’s precisely the point. If there is nothing out of order, produce the document. Why fight in court to keep the document in the dark?
39. coffeebean | 12.08.08
Obama should be fine even though he hasn’t and won’t show his BC it past the point of no return now and they being the “USSC” would never allow such a scandal to be seen, this will come out sometime in the years to come. I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger also wanted to run for USP but a stink came out stating that he had to be a US citizen, now that Obama has obviously carried this one off and the supreme court ruling “not willing to review it due to embarrassment I’m sure we’ll have more challenges in the future such as Arnold Schwarzenegger. Besides its clearly a fact that if you have the money you can buy anything these days including the POUS
41. DoneDeal | 12.08.08
I would like to take a moment to thank George Bush for screwing up so bad that now we have Obama for president. Without Bush, all of this would not be possible.
42. Wayne | 12.08.08
The argument does have it’s points, but it would be irresponsible to yank him now. You can deny it all you want, but it would make the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict look like a joke.
43. ann | 12.08.08
george washington was born in virginia … american soil..
john hanson was the first president…there were 7 presidents prior to george washington. George wash was president in 1789 under the constitution as it is today the prior presidents were under the Articles of confederation.
FOR PHILLY LAWYER #9
44. Greg | 12.08.08
The whole constitution rule is ridiculous. Who care where you are born? Why does that matter? If you are a citizen that serves this country then you should be able to be president. The whole country is made up of people born all around the world. If you are not born here then under the constitutional rules you shouldn’t be able to die for our country either. All the soldiers that served this country but were not born here must mean nothing then. This is a rule from the old days when the country was new. We decide who should be president by election so it should not matter where you popped out and took your first breath!!
45. Shay | 12.08.08
Better to get this issue out of the way now, than have it crop up at some point after Obama is president.
46. Ian | 12.08.08
In response to Trey’s comment “To the best of my knowledge, anyone born to a citizen of the U. S. is automatically a citizen of the U. S., no matter where they are born–the location has nothing to do with it if one (or both) of your parents is a citizen” - that is not entirely true. My son has an American mother and I, his father, am British and he was born in the U.K. He was _entitled_ to American citizenship but we had to apply for it at the US Embassy and then attend the Embassy in person. If we had not done so he would not be an American citizen now. However, anyone born in the USA, even to illegal immigrants, is automatically a citizen by virtue of where they’re born.
47. Ted | 12.08.08
From USC Title 8, Section 1401:
“The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof; (b) …”
The citizenship of Obama’s parents DOES NOT MATTER, nor does it matter if anyone considers him to be a citizen of another country at birth. Dual citizenship is no disqualification to being president.
It doesn’t even matter if Obama was born before Hawaii became a state (so long as one assumes that Obama is under 108 years old); from USC Title 8, Section 1405:
“A person born in Hawaii on or after April 30, 1900, is a citizen of the United States at birth.”
I would be very interested in knowing what merit Justice Thomas saw in the case to pass it on to the full court after Justice Souter had rejected it.
48. catpurrson | 12.08.08
Obama doesn’t to provide a copy of his “vault birth certificate.” His birth announcement appeared in the newspaper in Hawaii listing the address of his parents. Officials of the State of Hawaii have already said that he was born there. And the Certificate of Live Birth states plainly at the bottom: “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding. [HRS 338-13b, 338-19].”
So (1) are you saying that the Hawaiian state code doesn’t apply (i.e., that this Certificate of Live Birth is NOT prima facie evidence;(2) that Hawaiian officials are lying; and (3) that people conspired in 1961 to place a “bogus” birth announcement in the newspaper in Hawaii anticipating that BHO would someday run for the presidency?
That is really stretching it. But I guess people’s heads get hot and they can’t think clearly under those tinfoil hats.
49. BobC | 12.08.08
So are we doomed because Obama has a citizenship status that has some legalistic quirks or because we spend so much energy parsing these legalistic quirks?
50. Scott | 12.08.08
Let’s see. Because of one’s “national origins”, one is not treated exactly as another citizen??? It sounds like a contradiction in the “interpretation” of the Constitution, especially as another person so pertiently indicated that George Washington was a British citizen at the time of his birth. Another question is what is the meaning of “natural born”??? No Caeserian delivery? No artificially-inseminated offspring??? No surrogate motherhood???
It seems that the antiquated language of an era some hundreds of years ago seems, well, “antiquated”, as well as thoroughly imprecise in today’s world.
The Constitution should be updated, much as any living entity does, in order to survive and face current environments.
SCHWARZERNEGGER should have the same right to be president as any citizen, don’t you think?
51. Observer | 12.08.08
Wow, I have done it again. I have read some comments a shake my head in disbelief. 1st I see comment #7 from Angel who believes that just because something is law does not mean it should be obeyed, this is the same attitude that landed us where we are. GW Bush appreciates citizens like you…
Then comment #9 who proclaims that George Washington was not a US citizen, though he was born in Westmoreland VA. on 2/22/1732.
I am not sure what the deal is with Leo Donofrio for bringing this suit, maybe he actually has our best interests at heart? The lawsuit he brought while not popular, was brought for good reason. How do I know this? Because our Constitution (The paper that gives us citizens our rights) says so.
I hope schools soon begin teaching that just because someone is popular and has good ideas, that does not necessarily mean they are the best choice for any particular situation. Our country has a long history and established laws and principles that should be observed regardless of how fantastic ones ideas may be.
52. tai | 12.08.08
This is just total ****. I have dual citizenship, as do my 3 children. I have never had a problem with all the things citizen ship entail. Taxes, land purchases, and voting, etc. The most simple fact is that if you are born in the US you are a citizen, whether or not your parents have other citizenships. You never have to pick which one you want ( unless the other country makes you). This is just stupid. I cant believe some people buy into this garbage.
53. joe.shuren, bouvet island | 12.08.08
The issue of what “natural born” citizen means in the Constitution is important. The Framers evidently meant to make sure the US President and Vice President had undivided loyalty to the USA and not in any way obedient to foreign law. The subject of dual nationality and nationality of birth is complex and varies between nations, but the political significance here would be present even if Barack Obama did not present facts bearing on the issue. (Both his father’s being a Kenyan citizen and thus at the time a British subject, and his adoption by an Indonesian father and apparent Indonesian citizenship as a student there.)
It is unfortunate but understandable that the Supreme Court did not take up this case. Certainly Congress will go ahead and unanimously recognize the vote of the Electors. Only some crazies see a real problem with Obama’s loyalty, but the legal questions remain and should be addressed seriously and in a non-partisan fashion. Whether Congress can later clarify the matter through legislation is uncertain, maybe a Constitutional amendment might be needed. The problem is difficult, as it must be done with standing and at the right time, and respect the Constitutional separation of powers. It is hard to see how to clarify the language without restricting certain candidates.
Note there is also the issue of whether a member of a Native American tribe can be qualified by the Constitution to be President or Vice President.
54. catpurrson | 12.08.08
Ann, you miss the point. At the time George Washington was born THERE WAS NO UNITED STATES. He was born in Virginia, but at the time of his birth Virginia was a part of the British empire. I don’t think the Constitution made its provisions retroactive back to the first landing in the New World. Ergo, George Washington was “not native born.” He was born on British soil as a British subject.
55. alaphiah | 12.08.08
This all started with a Hillary Clinton supporter filing suit in pennsylvania before the Democratic National Convention he petitioned the court to has the DNC, Obama and others show that Obama was eligible to be president by showing a birth certificate.
Obama failed to answer in the required time and by default showed that he is not eligible to be president three weeks after that the court dismissed the case.
Its horrible to think that Americans are so ignorant that they don’t care that Obama and Dems have shredded the constitution worst than anything that President Bush could have done.
And all Obama has to do to remedy the situation is show a BC!
56. Cathy | 12.08.08
Since Obama’s father and mother were married before he was born, would his father have had dual USA and British citizenship? My understanding is that when a foreign woman marries a US man, she acquires US citizenship. Does it also work the other way? (Thank you for the reference, #25.)
57. R | 12.08.08
I’m of the school of (not that anyone really cares) what do we do if (that’s IF) sometime next summer someone someplace discovers completely irrifutable evidence that Barry O was lying all along and that those in this country who voted for him (I didn’t so don’t look at me) actually elected an illegal President? Huh? What do we do then? After he’s signed a whole bunch of things, after he has changed the course of our foreign policies. What do we do then? Huh? Come on, speak up. Okay, so you have no answer (I don’t either). But it sure begs the question why the issue is being swept under the rug and not honestly vetted. Are there people out there who are actually worrying that Barry O IS NOT truly elegible? And where oh where is the media in all this? It is perhaps one of the biggest conspiracies of all time.
You should keep in mind the words from the French writer of the 19th century, Baudelaire. He wrote words to the effect, “…the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he did not exist…”. Have we all been played here?
58. M | 12.08.08
The funny thing is that if you visit a couple of the blogs talking about this, you’ll notice the same comments being posted over and over, even as the falsehoods (”Home Lands” program for native Hawaiians, pretending Obama has access to his original BC, ignoring the verification we’ve already gotten on his birth from Hawaiian officials, etc etc etc) get debunked. I’d love to know whose payroll they’re on, because it’s getting repetitive and they really need to hire more creative commenters.
59. Fred | 12.08.08
This is going to get very interesting. SCOTUS may very well hear Cort Wrotnowski, Applicant v. Susan Bysiewicz, Connecticut Secretary of State case. According to Denofrio’s website, he says this suit has more teeth. He worked on both.
60. Rose Newburg | 12.08.08
Didn’t ask Barack where he was born when I voted for him. Don’t really care, he just may save us from this sorry mess!
61. Pat | 12.08.08
I agree with Denofrio except that he does not explain why having dual citizenship at birth necessarily implies “not natural born citizen”.
62. Tom Busler | 12.08.08
Everyone here is saying, “why don’t you do something more constructive with your time than to raise such a silly and pointless lawsuit?” Why don’t all of YOU do something more constructive with YOUR time? If you find it silly and pointless, why are you so steamed about it? Why did those of you who raise race as the ultimate motivating factor choose to interject in such a way with absolutely no grounds. Oh, wait. Because you feel any “attack” on the legitimacy of an Obama presidency OBVIOUSLY stems from a racist agenda, and has nothing to do with people who disagree with the man on his ideology (wealth redistribution as my primary gripe). The same among you who call this a trite lawsuit would be checking serifs in the Constitution if abortion (or some other matter important to you) were on the line. This is no trifling matter. And, if it is, the SC will not hear the case. I don’t know if it hits at the heart of the PURPOSE of the Constitutional wording, but I do think it is a valid test of the language. It is hilarious to me how some people want to selectively enforce the rules when it is convenient for them. And, finally, in my opinion, the most creative argument here was the one about how President Washington (and many of his immediate successors, really) were really British by birth, thereby putting forth a sort of precedent in addition to the language. I’m not sure how applicable it is, but it was interesting nonetheless.
63. daveo5624 | 12.08.08
147 years ago, Another Illinois Senator caused a “Constitutional Cherice” by Ignoring Congress and Only Congress Had the “Right to Declare WAR”. That “Constitutional Cherice” issue was also ignored by the “Supreme Court” then, More “Americans” ( Both North and South ) died in that War than in the Entire History of this country because of a ignored “Constitutional Cherice”.
Do Not Repeate This Mistake by ignoring the Constitutions Requirements for the Presidents Election.
64. Big Al | 12.08.08
I demand to see everyone’s vault copy birth certificates. If you don’t produce them forthwith, I’ll call the INS on you.
Meh… in any case. Even if he had dual citizenship, that would still mean he was a US citizen at the time of his birth, and therefore a natural born citizen. Born on US soil, to a citizen of the United States, I believe that’s the definition. ****, I think you only need the first part.
Apparently Denofrio lives off of social security checks too. Being a **** IS this guy’s hobby.
65. kitty | 12.08.08
Those of the base Base (pun intended) of the Republican party will never get over the fact that they lost this time around and lost BIG!!
66. David | 12.08.08
Whacky! So if you were born in Vancouver Canada, and at 3 days old, your family moved to the United States, you could never become President? Why does that make ANY sense? If you’re a U.S. Citizen, who gives a tin ****! There’s a perfect safety value…the voters. If the voters don’t want to elect someone who spent their first 36 hours of life in Canada (and the rest here) then they can choose not to elect them. End of problem.
67. Thoman Jefferson | 12.08.08
Obama is a fraud and a con man, regardless of what the Supreme Court decides.
68. Steve | 12.08.08
Has anyone considered the possibility that he CAN’T FIND HIS ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE? I know I can’t. But I am still a natural born citizen. When I wanted to get a passport, I went to my state’s Office of Records, and got an electronic copy. What is the problem with that?
Why is that not good enough?
I also have not idea where my original social security card is. Can you believe some morons keep it in their wallet?! One mugging later, it’s gone!But that won’t prevent me from getting social security benefits when I get to retirement age. (The way things are going, that will probably be 80 in my case!
69. Mary F. | 12.08.08
Right on, Greg. The point that everyone’s missing is that most of America couldn’t give a damn where a president was born. The funny thing of course is that the insistence of the fear-based minority at scrutiny over this point would only lead to a disqualification of their candidate as well.
Obama won, with the majority endorsement of the country. They just can’t believe it’s true, and they’ll do anything to keep denying it.
Sorry people, the world’s moved on without you. We like our new black president. We love that he’s as smart as any president this country’s ever had. We look forward to seeing how he does the next four years.
70. daveo5624 | 12.08.08
147 years ago, Another Illinois Senator caused a “Constitutional Cherice” by Ignoring Congress and Only Congress Had the “Right to Declare WAR”. That “Constitutional Cherice” issue was also ignored by the “Supreme Court” then, More “Americans” ( Both North and South ) died in that War than in the Entire History of this country because of a ignored “Constitutional Cherice”.
Do Not Repeate This Mistake by ignoring the Constitutions Requirements for the Presidents Election.
71. What? | 12.08.08
Philly Lawyer, George Washington was born on February 22 1732 the first son of Augustine Washington and his second wife, Mary Ball Washington, on the family’s Pope’s Creek Estate near present-day Colonial Beach in Westmoreland County, Virginia. Where did you learn your history?
72. daveo5624 | 12.08.08
147 years ago, Another Illinois Senator caused a “Constitutional Cherice” by Ignoring Congress and Only Congress Had the “Right to Declare WAR”. That “Constitutional Cherice” issue was also ignored by the “Supreme Court” then, More “Americans” ( Both North and South ) died in that War than in the Entire History of this country because of a ignored “Constitutional Cherice”.
Do Not Repeate This Mistake by ignoring the Constitutions Requirements for the Presidents Election.
73. Nixon | 12.08.08
The bullies who want to twist any bit of fact about Obama’s past into some absurd attack are at it again. This isn’t a single issue about Obama’s birth certificate. This is just one little piece of a larger slander war against ALL Democrats. This is part of the systematic hate machine with no purpose other than to damage the Democratic “brand”. Having completely ruined their own “brand”, the Republicans think they have nothing to lose by launching spurious attacks from every direction. They then pretend it is the responsibility of those they attack to clear their own good names. No.
Obama should give them NOTHING!!!
Playing into their game is a mistake, and only gives their continued systematic attacks an air of validity where there is none. Obama should continue doing what he is doing, which is to shut them down and lock them out. No mercy, don’t give an inch, in this sort of Rovian war.
74. Art | 12.08.08
The natural born clause was put in the Constitution to keep Alexander Hamilton from running for president. No body could stand the little *******.
75. CommonSense | 12.08.08
Hawaii–just show the original Certificate of Live Birth and end this nonsense!!
76. mike d | 12.08.08
“Hawaii officials contend that the COLB (Certificate of Live Birth) that has thus far been produced is sufficient to address reasonable questions that have come up”.Is not true
The Constitution does not make it clear what “natural born citizen,”is.
This leaves it open for silly people to play with the law.
The Supreme Court is very unlikely to challenge the peoples chose on some vague legal challenge.
77. A Jerk from Jersey | 12.08.08
For No. 42 (Ann): George Washington was not born in the United States of America. He was born in the British American colony of Virginia. British soil. He and the next 6 presidents were grandfathered in by Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution: “No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President…”
The fact that we are in the 21st Century and arguing over the small print in a document written in the 18th Century is troubling. This is not what the framers intended. They figured their descendants’ civic zeal would have produced hundreds of amendments by now. As opposed to us behaving like evangelicals at Bible study, stuck in the days of feather-quill pens and parchment.
Obama’s mother was an American citizen. He was born in the United States. Debate over. Let’s fix the economy and capture Bin Laden.
78. gia | 12.08.08
oh good, so all the idiots claiming he wasnt qualified can shut up now!
it was stupid to bring it up in the first place knowing that for mccain it was the same difference.
but seriously, even if you are a dual citizen, it doesn’t mean you’re half a citizen. that’s the whole point of being a dual national, you are one and one, you are both.
but still, a relief!!!
79. Ramon | 12.08.08
Case 08a469 — Cort Wrotnowski vs Bysiewicz, Connecticut Secretary of State has been distributed today by HON. Justice Antonin Scalia for full conference (private, as occurred with Donofrio’s case last Friday) to take place this Friday, December 12th. http://truthliving.com/obamafraud.htm
The Fat Lady is still rehearsing, but she might be cancelled.
80. GuyWhoUsesGoogle | 12.08.08
Obama’s birth certificate is right here:
http://www.donkeydish.com/images/gallery/barack-obama-birth-certificate_472×460.jpg
It is also shown on thousands of other websites. What part of, “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding,” do you people not understand?
81. Jake | 12.08.08
> I wish Obama’s Legal team would seek to make an example of all those who filed suite and sue them for slander, malicious defamation of character,libel and then drag them through the court system. <
So do I - because in order to win a judgment on slander, libel, etc. they’d have to PROVE the claims aren’t true & in order to do that they’d have to produce the very documents they have been filing motions to keep out of the court system.
82. JR Salazar | 12.08.08
I think Leo Donofrio is gonna have a lawsuit coming his way for defamation.
I’m calling for it.
83. Alex | 12.08.08
All of you. Most of you at least. RACE, don’t walk, to the nearest school and enroll in critical thinking classes.
Don’t stop. Ever. This is childish. He produced a certified document already. This isn’t even close to a real topic for any US citizen.
By a raise of hands, who thinks that this topic is intelligent, relevant, realistic, or even just good for the US right now?
Go to the classes. Really. Critical thinking. It will set you free of this time waster.
84. Bryan | 12.08.08
Obama… full disclosure! Same with McCain if it were reversed. The US has made too many mistakes by arbitrarily side stepping their own laws(e.g. immigration). If Obama is ineligible then he can’t be president. If Donofrino is wrong then he should be publicly humiliated and sued for Liable. Such should be the way of things.
85. Hey Greg | 12.08.08
“The whole constitution rule is ridiculous.”
Regardless if the rule is “ridiculous” or not, that is not the issue. The issue is, that in order to be the President of the United States, a person must be born a natural citizen of the United States as required by the Constitution. If the majority in this country feel that this is a “ridiculous’ requirement as you put it, then the people should vote to have the Constitution amendmended, but until that time, the Constitution should be upheld. If we do not uphold this part of the Constitution, what other sections of the Constitution can/will/should be ignored?
Obama, and all candidates should be required to prove they meet the requirements to be eligible for the office of the Presidency. I find it suspicious that Obama refuses to set the record straight if he has nothing to hide.
87. walters | 12.08.08
Donofrio, from New Jersey? He is some foreigen idiot himself. Sorry guys from Jersey but you have a son of a nut there. Or he is a beetch slapped repub? Some laid off workers could use the money he is wasting in the courts. Palin would cut his throat on main street let alone not get out her WHIP over a birth cert on Obama if she thought she could make people forget $165000.00 hair jobs + clothes. Did you vote for her Donofrio?
Yo Hon
88. max | 12.08.08
its amazing how you still trust your judgement .after bush for 8 years .his only regret is bad intel.not 9 11 or katrinia loss of american and iraqie lives.thousand of life long disabilties ie wounded.what happen your faith if obama is your president wheres your respect?wheres the love the forgiveness?wheres the judge not?the deliver us from evil?turn the other cheek?whoa onto you lawyers.Good bless you .
89. Wake up USA | 12.08.08
Man we will learn to do our homework one day. ;( Until then ill remain overseas and watch from the outside looking in. I am so sad for my people who are asleep to whats REALLY going on. Its not about race, or citizenship anymore. Its about keeping the status quo and keeping those in power who have been in power with a new Fresh face. Just look at some of the people he is appointing for his cabinet and some of his advisers and policies that are up and coming + our current economy + war + terrorism (boo)+ prison population + fake war on drugs + patriot act + public education system + puplic being spied on + obesity + children fighting rich mans wars + ect….. Im an African American myself but I do know history and I am a 2 time war vet who has lived overseas since 9-11 and I can tell you America this is not the Change we need.
90. walters | 12.08.08
Donofrio, from New Jersey? Sorry guys from Jersey but you have a son of a nut there. Some laid off workers could use the money he is wasting in the courts. Palin would cut his throat on main street let alone not get out her WHIP over a birth cert on Obama if she thought she could make people forget $165000.00 hair jobs + clothes. Did you vote for her Donofrio?
Yo Hon
91. Obama rules - deal with it | 12.08.08
I just love all of the sour pusses, that think this is an issue, it’s not, what matters is getting our country back on the right track ~ this doesn’t deserve a second of the media or our court’s time!
Obama Rules, Deal with It already, if your candidate was so great, perhaps he would have won!!! nanny nanny boo boo~ wow that felt so adult, no I feel just like the rest of you Obama haters.
92. Hey Wayne | 12.08.08
“it would make the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict look like a joke.”
And who exactly would riot? Are you implying blacks would riot, and they can’t control themselves? How come no one was worried about riots if McCain lost? After all, 56 million people voted for him, and not a peep.
93. Almo | 12.08.08
As I understand this case, the suit was allowed to go to the court for consideration by Judge Thomas (after being turned down by Judge Sutor (Sp?) . What happened then? Do all the judges vote whether to accept the case? Is it a simple majority? How is the decision made - do lawyers argue for the consideration of the case before the court? Anybody know?
94. podfish | 12.08.08
Philly Lawyer: You should know that George Washington was grandfathered into eligibility by Clause the Fifth of Article Two of the U.S. Constitution. Maybe not really a lawyer?
“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”
95. Dave | 12.08.08
Wow, and I thought “Natural Born” meant you could not have been delivered by C-section.
96. Sean | 12.08.08
I need some tap dancing shoes, lessons, and top hat. I don’t think I need to further elaborate what I plan on doing when the witch dies many years from now.
97. Joe (Not the Plumber) | 12.08.08
I think Ed Weirdness is wrong.
The case is not contending whether the birth certificate is correct or else it would be over already. The judge can accept a sworn affidavit from the person in charge since they could possible be an office of the court.
The case is contending that the definition of natural born citizen(NBC) requires both parents to be citizen of US only and the person to be born on US soil.
I personally have always thought (my opinion) that NBC meant being born in US (or atleast) you are a citizen at birth. This is as opposed to Naturalized Citizen which means you become a US citizen after birth(because someone petitioned for you).
There is also one person contending that his father made him a citizen of somewhere else, but US INS (actually Home Land Security former INS dept) says that some one cannot take your citizenship you have to give it up.
So if my father is born somewhere else (say Britain) even thou I can be considered a British citizen because of parentage, in that case (the only case acceptable in the US) I can have Dual Citizen. This is as opposed to my petitioning to be a citizen of somewhere else, in which case I gave up my US citizenship.
In fact McCain was not born in the US. He was born in Panama or somewhere, but of US parentage. If I used my definition of NBC then he would qualify also since at the time of birth he was a US citizen w/o doing anything.
SO there is two kind of citizenship.
Naturalized Citizen … You one petitioned for you or you apply (petitioned) to be a citizen (Arnold, GOV. CA.)
Natural Born Citizen .. You were a citizen at birth. The different ways this can happen is
1. You born in the US.
2. You were born outside the US on American soil. (Consulate) not sure if this requires additional stuff.
3. Born of American Parents(Citizen).
4. You were born somewhere else while your parents were on Mission (Ambassador etc…) I am
98. jabberwolf | 12.08.08
I love how the idiots cant read the ENTIRE article.
It doesnt matter if he was born in the USA, or on foreign soil.
What matters is what he was designated, when born!
If he was a British citizen prior to being an American citizen, then he is not a naturally born citizen period!
This rule goes back to the days when people were born on ships out at sea. You could only pick 1 country to declare the child’s citizenship as.
This argument is the only argument that has actually made sense.
Mccain, while not born on US soil, was still declares as a USA citizen at birth by his parents who were also USA citizens.
99. Lew | 12.08.08
This article was not even about the question of birth but you can follow the link to the certificate: http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii233/mikesilvia/obama-birth-certificate.jpg
Now, the case itself was dismissed because if someone is “born” a U.S. citizen, the question of dual citizenship at the time of birth is irrelevant
You don’t have to study law to figure that one out.
100. Michael Borge | 12.08.08
If Obama would just slap down his birth certificate he could stop the wasted time money and bad feelings that are being generated over this. I think he was born in Kenya like his Grandmother stated. I bet his birth certificate is one that was applied for up to a year after his birth without any doctor’s signature. If he does have an actual birth certificate then he has to explain why two bad ones have been produced.
101. Elizabeth | 12.08.08
Where’s the “Vault Copy”? If we can’t follow the constitution then why in the **** do we follow any law? All of you that are proud about the case being thrown out, are really not smart. And when all this blows up and Obama makes everything fall. I only hope it’s all of you people who have built him up eat your words. Do any of you even remember what his pastor was preaching?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
102. sheniqua | 12.08.08
oh god, speaking of which, shouldn’t that person be holed up in his church compound waiting for the rapture?
103. Michael | 12.08.08
The case has no merit because the United States does not recognize duel citizenship status. They “allow” it, but do not legally recognize it. Legally, you are either an American citizen, or not. No duel, no grey area, no in-betweens.
104. Kenneth W. | 12.08.08
OK, let’s say that Obama is a good candidate to help our nation out of the current turmoil it is in, which would be great. Yet I don’t think the point is about race or is an attempt to put the country in more turmoil. If the mans points are valid then it is our constitution on the line. Think about it, just like any other thing if you start giving a little then where will it end. If Obama was a dual citizen and that denies him the title of a “natural born citizen” then no he should not be president, no matter how good of a candidate he is. Look people the constitution was not put together just for giggles and the more we change it the worse things will get. If we bend the rules here then in four years how much more will we be willing to bend them and lets honestly sit back and think where that could lead.
105. marlow | 12.08.08
I don’t mean to be a wiseass or anything - but could you please stick with one spelling of Donofrio? It’s just… distracting. Seeing how he’s the main protagonist in this amazing play.
106. Z No | 12.08.08
All those on this site who are demanding Obama to produce a copy of his birth certificate are WAY OFF THE MARK. This case has nothing to do with whether Obama was born on Unied States soil, and Denofrio readily admits he was. Please stop with the demands to produce a birth certificate! Those demands are grounded in the ignorant conspriacy-theory that Obama was born in Kenya and secretly flown to Hawaii to get U.S. citizenship. By demanding the certificate you legitimize that stance.
The issue here is whether Obama, born in Hawaii with a father from Kenya, can serve as president because both of his parents were not American citizens. NJ Citizen # 25 makes an interesting argument based on the meaning of the term “Natural Born Citizen” as it was used in the 18th Century. Many legal scholars argue this is how we should read the Constitution, as the words meanings existed when they were written. By this rational, however, we should resegregate schools and public facilities, because when the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment was written it clearly allowed for “Seperate but Equal” facilities. The language was never changed in the Constitution, but as society’s understanding of what Equal Protection means has changed, so too did the meaning of the Constitutional phrase.
We cannot rely on a 18th Century understanding of language to create policies for teh 21st Century, NJ Citizen. So, even admitting Obama’s father was not a citizen, he was born a U.S. citizen and therefore is qualified to be President.
To those who criticize the Supreme Court for avoiding the issue, understand that the Court does not have time to entertain frivilous lawsuits. Justice Thomas should be ashamed of himself for even bringing this case before the Justices after Justice Souter had already disposed of the case.
By the way, the whole debate about whether George Washington was natural born is irrelevant, read the Constitution folks. It says that you either have to be a natural born citizen OR live in US at the time of the signing of the Constitution.
107. Daniel | 12.08.08
Yay!! Now maybe the messiah can kick some of those bailout funds to CSM and keep you from going out of business altogether.
108. curry30 | 12.08.08
Philly Lawyer:
Washington was born in Virginia; he was a perfectly legitimate
American citizen under the newly ratified Constitution when he
was sworn into office in 1789.
Oh, and David (#44), 3 days = 72 hours.
109. Cee Vern | 12.08.08
LMAO. The same simple minded idiots that lined up behind that republitard VP that got her 15 minutes of fame; cheering her on while she insisted dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time as modern man (LMAO even more!!!), clinging desperately to a defaulted creationism belief that has no leg to stand on, failing miserably merely at its own suggestion of holding some truth, are now the same idiots lined up saying Obama isnt a US citizen. Get a —- IQ test and if your bright enough…. get a —– life. It continues to amaze me how the republitard party as a whole has no will or free thinking of its own people, and seeks to impose that Taliban style thinking on the rest of us.
110. mikey | 12.08.08
Barack had candidates knocked off the ballot in Illinois because they inadvertantly didn’t complete all the requirements to run for office. Shouldn’t he therefore, be more than willing to complete all his requirements? Yet he refuses to do so. There is your hypocracy. And if this was McCain (who was born in Panama), then the leftist would be all over it, in spite of our “crisis”.
111. MadcapMagician | 12.08.08
Did anyone think that a decision of anything other that what they did would actually happen ? no the supreme court is too scared to take on the tough cases anymore…. guess the system of checks and balances can be bought by a man who broke his promise to accept public campaign fianacing… =/ and very well may be a non U.S. citizen. If obie were eager to lay to rest this so called myth, then why has he NOT shown us a birth certificate? not a registration of live birth, a totally different deal… perhaps it is because he is afraid that they truth will come out that he is NOT a U.S. citizen.
HEY OBAMA QUIT ***** FOOTING AROUND THIS ISSUE AND SHOW US YOU BIRTH CERTIFICATE WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO BE SCARED OF ? THE TRUTH ?
112. habeav | 12.08.08
He’s not a citizen and shouldn’t be president. He’s obviously got a lot to hide. If he was smart he would concede before he ever takes office.
113. amy | 12.08.08
kenneth w, i’m going to recommend that you look a little closer at what our current administration has done in the past few years and how they’ve been bending a few things here and there in the constitution. until then, your argument fails to make a point.
114. Fred | 12.08.08
People who are saying that our Constitution was designed to be rigid and unchangeable… are dead wrong. You don’t know American political history. Virtually all the influential figures at the time of our constitution EXPLICITLY stated that all laws should be engineered with lenience and vagueness in areas, and only specific where it MUST, because it is impossible to have the foresight in crafting law to ensure that your rigid definition is precisely right for every situation. The spirit, meaning and value of the law should be clear, but the letter of it was never designed to be rigid. If that were the case, WHY WOULD WE EVEN HAVE JUSTICES AND COURTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? Furthermore, look at issues over the rights of Gun owners because of one Constitutional rule that was only designed for a specific war and did not have the clarity of vision for all possible future scenarios. You’d have to be selectively bias to believe that some Constitutional laws should be followed down to the letter but others not.
115. Smith | 12.08.08
We live in a country of idiots and I’m not referring to the guy who filed this case. God help us all.
116. educated person | 12.08.08
reading all the comments, I would say that some of you are mentally unfit to put your shoes on. I’m surprised you can even get on the Internet. http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert That is the link for Barack obama’s birth certificate that he released long ago. oh and @ ann #42George Washington was born in Virginia, a British colony, as a British subject not an american citizen. It along with the other British colonies claimed independence long after his birth. July 4th, 1776 I believe.
117. IToldYouSo | 12.08.08
There’s obviously some crack smoking going on with these frivolous law suits. Even the Supreme Court tossed it out.
Smoke weed, it will keep you head a bit clearer and reduce the chance of lawsuits like this in the future.
118. Lesh | 12.08.08
#9, the constitution specificly addresses the issue for George Washington:
“No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States…”
Washington was a citizen of the united states at the time of the adoption of the constitution.
#10, no one is arguing that BHO is a citizen, the argument is whether he is a “natural born citizen”. You will see in the excerpt from the constituion above, that there are differences between citizens, and natural born citizens.
119. NavyVeteran | 12.08.08
I, do solemnly swear that I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Apparently there is some characters in here that have never raised their right hand and said this oath. If you don’t know what it is, it is the Oath of Enlistment into the Armed Forces. I gave my word, and I take my word seriously.
The Constitution can always be amended, our history has shown that. BUT UNTIL THAT DAY, what is written in the Constitution IS THE LAW OF THE LAND, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS. Mr. Obama (note, he is not the Pres-Elect yet, and he resigned his seat) show us the birth certificate and end this mess, or step aside with dignity.
120. Get a Clue | 12.08.08
Personally I don’t care if Obama is a natural born/naturalized (or whatever citizen). I I would vote for for Schwarzenegger for President in a heart beat (Arnold are you listening?). What does bother me is, this is an easy topic to kill just by producing a simple birth certificate. Suggest produce the certificate and be done with it. And by the way, my wife was born in Hawaii in the same year that Obama was, and the “Certificate of Live Birth” looks nothing like her birth certificate.
121. barrett hays | 12.08.08
What a sick tick this character is. Anyone born on U.S. soil in an American Citizen. Donofruito is such an imbecile.
122. James Padgett | 12.08.08
For all the morons who only think the quest to determine whether Obama is eligible to be president is only a right wing Republican venture, take 5 minutes of your time to visit http://www.obamacrimes.com, the webiste of attorney Phillip Berg. Berg is a lifelong liberal Democrat who requested the DNC to vet Obama to insure he was constitutionally eligible. Instead of cooperating, they came against Berg, former deputy attorney general of Pennsylvania. It was at this point, he filed his lawsuit.
So many lazy loons simply believe what they see on FactCheck.org and Pol iFact.com without checking out the many articles that call into question the documents they contain. For example they are too lazy to view the brief video on http://www.obamacrimes.com on whch a PhD in structural media (who specializes in the imaginf of docoments) gives 6 reasons why he concluded the documents are forgeries (MUCH TO HIS SUPRISE FROM WHAT HE THOUGHT HE’D COME TO CONCLUDE WHEN HE STARTED HIS EXAMINATION)
123. Lesh | 12.08.08
#68 said:
The point that everyone’s missing is that most of America couldn’t give a damn where a president was born
Thats a sad commentary, right up with GWBs “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, it’s just a ********* piece of paper!” and BHOs “I won’t appoint lawyers who will be constrained by the letter of the law”.
The constitution is what our country is based on. Its what has made us the best county in the world for the last 232 years.
124. pacific islander | 12.08.08
I was born in Hawaii as well, 1963.
The document he submitted(certificate of live birth) is merely the copy the hospital gives the parents to apply for a birth certificate. To get a CofLB you only need to ask the hospital for it and give them basic info, for example if the baby was born in a taxi, you could ask for the form.
My parents submitted the certificate of live birth and a month later received my birth certificate. I needed a replacement recently and sent $10 to Hawaii, 8 days later got a new original, no problem. Why doesn’t he just show the vault copy? Because it doesn’t exist.
He was the child of a British citizen and an American citizen, born who knows where. All a moot point since a year later his Mother married an Indonesian citizen and gave up the American citizenship for herself and her children. Obama was later registered for school in Indonesia, those forms show him as an Indonesian citizen of the Muslim faith.
Bottom line, he bought the election, he isn’t qualified and no executive orders he gives even if inaugurated need or shall be honored. He is a Marxist and a Fascist, who after forming this “National Security Force” will attempt a coup over the United States Government.
There you go, that’s my theory. That and a Dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
125. TooDarkmark | 12.08.08
Just going to point out that on Factcheck.org they have pictures of his birth certificate. This really is pointless because so far the Bush Justice Department, the Supreme Court, the Republican President, any every legal and official organization HAS NO PROBLEM WITH WHAT IS PRESENTED AS HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE. The only one’s who seem to have a problem with it ARE RIGHT WING loonies on the internet and people who’s cases are too ridiculous to be seen by a REPUBLICAN LEANING supreme court.
126. ann7965 | 12.08.08
Obama could easily end any speculation about his eligibility. Should we abide by the Constitution by popular demand? Sad, but most people would refuse to believe him if Obama himself declared his qualifications to be president are not legal.
127. RThomas | 12.08.08
The Supreme Court is named as it is for a reason - “supreme (adjective): highest in rank or authority; paramount; sovereign; chief, ultimate.” The Supreme Court is just that, and this was their call. The Republicans must simply accept this, just as the Democrats dealt with the decision in Bush v Gore.
Unfortunately, some people are bound and determined to impose their view of the world on others, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. I feel sorry for them, but (as another poster pointed out) critical thinking is not their strong suit.
128. KK | 12.08.08
The Constitution is safe, we are ALL safe, and PE Obama fulfills the requirements of elected office.
By constantly looking for esoteric loopholes to Obama’s election, you look very foolish. And, no, I do not mean that flaunting the Constitution is esoteric — IF someone flaunted it, then consequences should be brought to bear. That simply is not the case here.
And WHY does Obama not show his Birth Certificate?
1) He DID show it, to the people who mattered (sorry, that apparently was not you);
2) He DID show a copy of it (online) only to have the conspiracy theorists deride it and declare it a fake;
3) He DID fulfill the “natural born” requirments of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution (really, just read it)
4) you all Do look like desperate people willing to sacrifice your intelligence for that Rovian trick of saying something false enough that it becomes a fact.
No amount of your insistence that Obama show his BC (again, because if you’ve been attentive, you’d know by know that he already did so) makes it proper for you to ask. Just think of this: *I* have no right to question your citizenship and *I* cannot approach you on the street and “make” you show your birth certificate (one that *I* would ‘accept’). Being an American affords *YOU* the right to tell me to take a flying leap.
WHEN will people use some common sense here? NO ONE FLAUNTED THE CONSTITUTION IN THIS CASE, as is obvious by the deafening silence on the ‘merits’ of the lawsuits.
129. KJC | 12.08.08
What puzzles me about this whole thing is- why would Obama’s grandmother say that she was witness to his birth in Kenya? That his mother was planning to make the trip from Kenya to Hawaii, but feeling it would be too risky to make in her condition, chose to delay the trip until after his birth. That she made the trip to Hawaii after Obama’s birth and registered his birth in Hawaii several days after the fact. It is a bit strange that the certificate of live birth that appears on the Obama website lists no hospital, no attending physician, no statistics of weight or length. Seems to me that there is room for discussion on the matter.
130. dick crosby | 12.08.08
There is a simple solution to stop all of these lawsuits. Obama should provide his Birth Certificate, then there would be no questions.
Given that he refuses to do so raises question.
This is all about the Constitituion and whether we believe in the rule of law.
131. Pissed Off Patriot | 12.08.08
All you moron Democrats and Obamaton kool aid guzzlers that have issues with these cases need to wake the freak up and get a clue about your Constitution, The Founder’s Intent for this Country, and the fact both the Democrats and the Republicans don’t give one freaking iota about what YOU want.
As long as you keep voting for their false suits and messiahs, they will keep laughing all along the way as to American stupidity. Wake up people!
Obama is not eligible, if he was - he would have just turned over his REAL Live Birth Certificate and been done with it. They are pulling the wool over our eyes and you don’t give a dang! He’s not this country’s savior, he will be a devastation to it.
For all of you thinking the Constitution is worthless and not important to the running of this country - morons, idiots, and traitors all of you.
132. Ander Holbrooke | 12.08.08
To Bill Tracy:
Bill Tracy, you are a grade A fool sir. I maybe understand your wishes to stick to the letter of the law, but if Obama was still a Senator and had to take care of responsibilities as a Senator, think of how less prepared he would be when he takes office [maybe minor responsibilities, but still time be consuming]. It would be idiotic to expect the man to prepare starting on Dec. 15 for what will be one of the toughest terms in decades.
It would also be idiotic if he stayed on as Senator, but shirked those responsibilities to take care of the transition.
On the article:
While I am generally for common individuals who act as whistleblowers, this is just absurd. Is it these people’s intentions to, on the basis of a few technicalities, place the nation in turmoil? What do they expect to happen? The Supreme Court says a US born individual should not be President for [absurdly, perhaps invented] bizarre technical reasons and let the country suffer [no plans in Washington, no staff in the Whitehouse, no way of getting us out of this rut]? Sick of this. I’m an immigrant to America, but now a citizen. I want us to be back on top, and thinking like this man’s may not help.
133. Chana Rosenfeld | 12.08.08
Obama has spent THOUSANDS of dollars in legal fees in order NOT to have to show his original birth certificate. I find this very odd. What does he have to hide? No one addresses this, esp. not those on his side.
Because he refuses to prove he is Constitutionally allowed to be president, and because the SCOTUS evidently is too afraid to touch the issue (so far), I and millions of other Americans refuse to recognize the usurper Obama, and we resist his rule.
Good luck trying to “rule” a country as “president”, Obama, when half (or maybe by then, more than half) the country refuses to recognize you!
134. Ramon | 12.08.08
Case 08a469 — Cort Wrotnowski vs Bysiewicz, Connecticut Secretary of State has been distributed today by HON. Justice Antonin Scalia for full conference (private, as occurred with Donofrio’s case last Friday) to take place this Friday, December 12th. http://truthliving.com/obamafraud.htm
The Fat Lady is still rehearsing, but she might be cancelled.
135. Donofrick | 12.08.08
Mr. Leo Donofrio, seams to me that you are from another country, where Donofrio last name? Do you have a real job man?
Are you upset because Obama is the First African American President?
You know Mr. “Don Frio ” some people don’t care about Obama is black the care because he is not republican, other people don’t care about him because he is black, what is your real concern? for example I don’t care about you be cause you a coo cu, atarantado, time waiter “Chupa Bicho”
Why don’t you sue Bush for insanity? you might have a case there, my advise don’t spend to much time in front of a mirror, you might want to sue yourself.
Please go to any fast food chain and get as many napkins as you can an keep them ready for January 20, so when you see The President Obama and you cry and skyll like a pig you can wipe your tears.
hasta la vista
136. Suzanne | 12.08.08
Although I believe the question of Mr. Obama’s birth is a mute point, I really don’t care where the man was born. What I do care about is that we will have a person of competence and vision taking office in January.
137. Chris in Chicago | 12.08.08
Most legal scholars would argue that the “natural-born citizen” provision in the Constitution for presidential eligibility should be best left to the legislative and not judicial branch for interpretation.
Does John McCain’s birthplace in the Panama Canal Zone qualify him as a natural born citizen of the United States? The NYT had an excellent article on the subject earlier this year:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html
Let’s move on. We have much more pressing issues than this.
138. Questioning History | 12.08.08
Has anyone even read the Consitution and the Declaration of Independence regarding the vote for President? I have. Nowhere that I can find does it state that a Party (DNC or RNC)gets to nominate a Presidential AND Vice Presidential candidate. It does read that the candidate receiving the second largest number of votes shall be elected Vice President. As far as I can tell that invalidates the entire election process. I could be wrong, but rules are rules and they should be followed. If I’m missing something, let me know, I’m only 12.
139. US writes our own laws | 12.08.08
British laws regarding THEIR qualifications for citizenship mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the US’s laws regarding citizenship. Obama is a natural born US citizen under the qualifications of US law, and no legislation from ANY other nation can abridge that.
If the Brits decided tomorrow to pass a law that no longer recognized the creation of the United States, they could pass that law. They could say that ALL US citizens are still part of the British Commonwealth, and therefore ALL US citizens were actually not US citizens, but British citizens. According to the logic of those backing Donofrio, that would give the Brits (or any nation writing whatever laws they want) to have ruling authority over who the United States determines is one of their own citizens.
This is absolute rubbish. We’re in the US. US law rules supreme here. WE determine who is a citizen of our own country, no matter what claim British law might make upon our citizens. British law is irrelevant. The people who want to hand over OUR ability to determine who OUR OWN citizens are based upon OUR OWN laws over to the Brits instead, can all go move to the UK if they want to live under British law instead of US law.
140. Captain Steve | 12.08.08
This issue will not be going away. Obama has been dishonest and secretive about his past. Anybody with a bit of common sense knows that online documents can be altered (as the factcheck docs appear to have been). True he has unknown docs on file in Hawaii, but he also has unknown sealed docs on file in Kenya. Why does he have sealed docs in KENYA??? I could go on an on. If he has nothing to hide, release the documents!
I WANT TO SEE HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND PAST RECORDS!!
141. GoBama | 12.08.08
“Transparency” needs to READ what he/she wrote as the information contradicts itself.
“The computer-generated form — the same document President-elect Obama is using to defend his status as a natural born citizen — IS NOT SUFFICIENT for the Home Lands program.”
But then writes -
“Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money SINCE THE COMPUTER-GENERATED CERTIFICATION REQUIRES ADDITIONAL VERIFICATION by DHHL.”
Sounds like the DHHL accepts the computer generated but says their processing is quicker if you use the other form?
Besides, since when was Obama applying to for Home Lands Program? What do we care what THEY want?
All that is *transparent* to me is someone is yet another tin-foil wearing sore loser.
142. Too Logical | 12.08.08
Our constitutional law states that any person wishing to run for an United States Executive position must be a “natural born citizen”. So why wasn’t this topic resolved when Obama registered to run for the US Senate? If there is a law there should be a process to follow the law and check it out BEFORE a person is granted the opporunity to run for the position. Don’t we have any “checks and balances” anymore? It looks like the constitution is not being followed and it sounds like alot of people don’t care. Shame on us. US blood was shed to protect the US and our constitutional rights and people just don’t care anymore? Our country is in a sad state because of the people.
143. Luke | 12.08.08
Obama, share the wealth. You raised 750MM. Pass it on to us comrades in Obama Soviet Republic. Marx lives!
144. papau | 12.08.08
Why does no one note that the Certificate of live birth asserts only that the child is a live birth that had as a parent an American citizen. It says nothing about location of birth - it is not the “vault” birth certificate although the “vault” birth certificate copy is part of the file. Hawaii has refused to confirm a Hawaii birth, stating only that the Certificate of live birth is a valid one - and the media pretends this means something it is not. Perhaps someone should note that Obama’s sister, admitedly born overseas, also has a Hawaii Certificate of live birth.
Why do you people pretend so hard that there is no problem. Ian in comment number 45 is spot on as to the law. - All Obama need do as the child of citizen Ann is to affirm his lotalty to the US in front a court clerk - is this so hard? - Or is the problem that Ann gave up her citizenship and never reapplied for it. Please read what Ian said: 45. Ian | 12.08.08
In response to Trey’s comment “To the best of my knowledge, anyone born to a citizen of the U. S. is automatically a citizen of the U. S., no matter where they are born–the location has nothing to do with it if one (or both) of your parents is a citizen” - that is not entirely true. My son has an American mother and I, his father, am British and he was born in the U.K. He was _entitled_ to American citizenship but we had to apply for it at the US Embassy and then attend the Embassy in person. If we had not done so he would not be an American citizen now. However, anyone born in the USA, even to illegal immigrants, is automatically a citizen by virtue of where they’re born.
145. blueskypolitics | 12.08.08
I find all of this laughable. John McCain wasn’t even born on US soil and his citizenship was never in question. Barack Obama was born on US soil and his citizenship has been quested by the right for most of the campaign to present. This is completely ridiculous and unbelievably pointless.
I read one of the comments above, and it mentioned that Obama needs to release a “vault copy” of his birth certificate. A what? First of all, he has released a copy of his birth certificate with the number removed for OBVIOUS reasons - ID theft, for one? Second of all, this subject has been gone over with a backhoe by members of the media and members of the blogosphere, and the result is the same every time, he was born on US soil and is a natural born citizen. Even the Republican Governor of Hawaii has come out and stated emphatically that Obama was born on her state’s soil.
The concept of “natural born” citizen means that you came out of the womb a US citizen. There is no dispute that Obama did just so. No where in the Constitution does it state that dual citizenship is an exception. What the framers were trying to avoid were people coming from other countries and running for President, like Napoleon’s brother for example, after “earning” citizenship.
I am sorry. I hate to bring this up, but this smells of racism to me. The people that are doing this may not even see or understand that what they are doing roots itself firmly in racism, but it really does. John McCain was not born on US soil, and NONE of these arguments were made against him. He NEVER once had to produce any type of birth certificate copy to prove his place of birth - a naval base in Panama, by the way. No other Presidential candidate in recent memory has had to prove their citizenship or that they were natural born, yet this has been a consistent drum beat from the right-wing side of the political field. It is disgraceful and the group of them should be ashamed of themselves. It is truly pathetic, and if you agree with them, then I pity you.
147. Mel | 12.08.08
There is no ignorant conspiracy theory. It is our Constitutional Law that is at the core of the matter. The question is whether or not we as a nation will abide the the laws inherent in our constitution. It is not about being sour. It is about Con Law.
148. TLewis | 12.08.08
Justice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that the way the Supreme court of California is going to deny marriage between a man and a woman their voting rights in American. So the US Supremen court is telling the US public to shut up and go away, the Truth be damned. What the **** is this goverrment turning into. There needs to be no secrets, no behind the closed doors government, but no we have to be told what we should do. If mr. obambam wants to be president then he shouldn’t be hiding the facts regarding his birth. Put in out in plane site. YOU Deceitful bunch of liars. Put his records out in public now.
149. fred rygiewicz | 12.08.08
I will say the remarks and comittees that I have read; be passsed on the the chief justices so they!!! has a sense of the thinking of the poor people who have to fellow the law of the land under the thinking of scheltered folk as US. think about it
150. john | 12.08.08
It seems most of the people here either don’t bother to read the article, or simply aren’t bright enough to understand it. It clearly states that Mr. Denofrio found Sen. McCain in equal violation. Therefore, I think it is safe to say that this was neither race, nor party related.
The fact that most Americans so vehemently defend and attack one party or another is really a more troublesome one. Two parties, one goal. Supporting either party does more harm to this country than any President ever has.
All sheep, whether dyed red or blue.
151. anonymous | 12.08.08
I honestly do not CARE if Obama was a martian. Who gives a flipping burger? The Man is intelligent, thoughtful, reasoned, and poised, …and we need someone with a brain who can inspire confidence in America once again, …to undo all the nonsense that those with no conscience have done to this country to line their pocket books. G W Bush may have been a “Natural Born Citizen” of this country, but he managed to send us back to the constitutional era with his policies. If allowed to continue, they’ll surely send us back to the stone age, or worse, sometime before the evolution argument ever became of any concern to anyone. Thank God for Obama. It feels good to be optimistic once again that the future is secure, even if it means a little pain now. No pain no gain.
152. Moby | 12.08.08
Denofrio is perhaps beholden to the Clintons who would like nothing better than to see Mr. Obama “dethroned”? It’s another conspiracy theory, anyway.
Denofrio, Clinton, blue dress, meaning of “is”, backroom deals, gay pride, Chappaquidick, Marilyn Monroe, Pearl Harbor… it all fits!!!
153. Steve Spinella | 12.08.08
I think natural born maybe means that one of your parents was a citizen OR that you were born in the United States. Either way you are “naturally” a citizen (e.g., a citizen by birth) as opposed to later becoming a citizen through the immigration process. It gets a little confusing when people refer to “releasing a birth certificate” as though this would offer some differing result. What in the world are people thinking this might say? That both his mother was not a US citizen and Hawaii was not part of the US?
Still three cheers for all of us who have two parents who were both US citizens and who were born in the continental USA. It’s a wonderful thing to have that extra assurance…. and do you know where your “vault copy (whatever that is) birth certificate” is? Actually my children’s original birth certificates (from Burlington County, NJ) did not pass the homeland security test because they were issued by the county, and the homeland security test now requires that birth certificates be issued by the state! (Don’t worry, you can get one just like Obama did from the state of Hawaii that will qualify!)
154. owl | 12.08.08
So, does that mean all the “mexicans” born on this side of the border are not citizens, because their parents are “mexicans?” Are you totally retarded? Or did you get hit by a bus on the way to the law library and forget which nation and which set of laws you live under?
155. deeppeace | 12.08.08
Boy, just goes to show you what nutcases Hillary loyalists are. Get a hobby, Donofrio.
157. Kem | 12.08.08
My question is why is Obama so adverse to showing the American citizens a legal certificate of birth that is signed? Why let the questions and doubts continue if he believes he is a natural born citizen? If he’s legal just show the document and put an end to the question. This lack of information being provided seems to only divide and he has so much work to do and he needs us to stand behind him. Trust needs to be restored in this nation.
Someone else wrote that Washington was not a US citizen because the country had not yet formed. Yes, but he was born here. Obama should put all of the speculation to rest but just providing a simple document that we all have access to.
158. TheyreJustMovies | 12.08.08
It just shows that some people have toooooo much time on their hands.
159. Constitution | 12.08.08
The Supreme Court has let America down on this one. They have been appointed to uphold the Constitution and dismissing this case is a disgrace and a direct snub to the Constitution. What is Obama hiding? Why won’t he show us his documents? Why is he spending millions in court fighting all of these lawsuits? If he does not prove his eligibility his Presidency will be meaningless. Nothing he writes into law will be valid. No military person will have to do a thing that he orders. If he takes an oath to uphold the Constitution he is a liar. Obama wants to destroy this country and he’s doing a great job already.
160. Patriot Henry | 12.08.08
“Whew… Obama can still be President - Supreme Court declines case”
Disgusting sentence.
If he’s not a natural born citizen he can not and will not be President. It doesn’t matter if the Supreme Court and the Pope both give him their blessing. The law is the law.
I ignored this issue for quite some time until I finally saw enough Republicans/conservatives complaining and thought there must be something to it. Allegedly there is proof of where and when Obama was born. Hawaii state officials claim to have seen it. He won’t share it with America. That’s a major red flag. If Obama really is all about “transparency” and “honesty” why can’t he reveal the same information I had to use to get a driver’s license?
At the very least he’s being secretive and hypocritical by being secretive. What is Obama hiding?
161. fred rygiewicz | 12.08.08
Just,a quick thought !!Mc cain was a soldier and followed the rules and directive he swore to protect and didn’t deviate from his plege he made ofter joining the servicesa. the give me the RIGHT to have control of the usa
162. Chris W. | 12.08.08
Obama, in order to receive classified information of the highest classification had to have a complete background check. This might have happened while serving in congress, but if it did not, it sure as **** did running for president. So now maybe the Secret Service or the DoJ or who ever does the checks at that level must be in on the cover up as well…..crazy people.
163. TommyFlorida | 12.08.08
Where’s all the whiney radical liberals crying foul about Obama’s deceit?
164. JSH | 12.08.08
I think many of the people are missing the point(s). Maybe not everyone has
read up on the subject. Maybe after a hard fought election process people are a little quick to get upset.
1. The Constitution can not be set aside at will and still protect our rights. This issue should be resolved publicly and legally and then we go on however it turns out. You can’t take the approach that my guy won, so don’t ask questions.
2. There are not just one or two questions about Obama’s citizenship, there are actually many. As I understand it, even the age of his mother at the time of birth is an issue when it comes to his citizenship. There are some actual legal issues involving that. What documentation did Hawaii have when issuing his birth certificate? There is the dual citizenship question and how it affects the term “natural born.” I count about seven questions that could affect citizenship from what I have read. How many babies do you have to be expecting to be pregnant? How many citizenship questions does it take to expect an answer? There are some legitimate questions here and people should be allowed to ask them. I am proud to be a citizen of the US. Ask me to prove it. No problem.
3. Five minutes in front of the hospital where he was born, if he was indeed born in the US, with an original birth certificate and some hospital witness with a folder containing an original “Obama was born here” document from the hospital and the media looking on with cameras would have put an end to this a long time ago. Obama let this fire grow when he could have blown it out in one puff. If one of my children was avoiding something like this I would know they were guilty of something. I was born in 1958 and my mother has some nice black and white photos of me at the hospital, bring out the Obama family album. We can make a special for Oprah. My wife will watch it and fill me in. We can all feel good about it and go on. Kraft foods can sponsor it or maybe Proctor and Gamble.
4. Someday there will be a problem with this. That is what my boss told me when I asked why we had to make work instructions so detailed. That is why it says “do not iron clothes while wearing” on the warning tag of the iron. Someone tried it. We need a process that prevents control from other countries and the take over of our government. Guess what? We have one, it is called the constitution. If you are a student of history you know it has happened before. If you are not a student of history, well then you will just have to live it over again.
History-know it or repeat it!
We don’t have to be so touchy over it. Is everything in order? Yes, ok that’s fine and go on. If it isn’t, shouldn’t we know? I wish everyone would get involved and ask questions. Be informed, be active.
best,
JSH
165. inbf | 12.08.08
I am a lefty and still consider this important. I wish it had come out sooner, now it will be a crisis. I’m glad the court is not taking this case, but there will be more. We desperately need transparency and Obama is refusing transparency - that is the heart of this issue. After the last opaque administration we do not need more opacity. Willful ignorance on the part of the left is not productive. This now seems like a quagmire of suits and more suits, not what the left - or anyone - needs right now. IF (and I stress ‘IF’) Obama has committed fraud then it is a monumental mess.
167. Sean | 12.08.08
I would just like to make the claim that New Jersey is not a state. It is run by the mafia and I think it is pretty obvious that the pollution there has rendered its inhabitance into mutated animal like creatures that can no longer be considered human. Please, lets just end the insanity and wall off this god forsaken sespit of corruption and toxic waste we call New Jersey.
168. Tim | 12.08.08
I actually can’t figure out why there are so many nut jobs that buy into this hysteria!
The whole thing was a waste of court time and OUR tax dollars, you should be more outraged of the frivolity of this than anything else. Do us all a favor and go spend time looking for the grassy knoll shooter!!
169. Tom Philo | 12.08.08
Response to #43
The reason why the natural born birth was written into the Consitution was to ensure that the person would have been raised with the values of the US for at least one generation. Otherwise, you could have someone born and raised in a foreign with forgeign values as to duty, law, governing philosophy come here and by perverting the US election system become President and then destroy the nation - legally. If the rule of just BEING a US citizen qualified a person, you could have someone who is extremly rich - a few billion in the bank - become a US citizen, spend all the money they want to buy the Presidency. A foreign government could even do this by giving billions to someone before they come to the US and become a citizen.
The idea is that someone living in the US and brought up here would be less influenced by foreign ideas.
170. Leo T. | 12.08.08
Mary F (68)
Your so intent on making this an “our side won, your side lost ha ha” issue when I think it’s you who miss the point. It’s called being united. It’s our country, so as you put it “get over it.” I’m not a Democrat, and I’m not an Independent, your the smart one, lets see if you can figure out what party I belong to. I didn’t vote or want Obama, but I can put party aside an say that I am proud of the progress our nation and it’s citizen’s have made by electing the first black president and advancing the female party role.
What I think that you fail to see during all your ha ha-ing is that it is actually you Obama supporters who have had the wool pulled over your eyes. Obama is already distancing himself from the platforms that he so promised you to get your votes. He’s pulling himself more and more to the center. I don’t recall these being the promises he made during the campaigns. As a matter of fact I know they weren’t, that’s what scared me the most about him.
But somehow I know that even his prior spoken words and the media’s coverage of him during the campaign will be dismissed by the dems.
Honestly, and I really mean this, I’m starting to feel more and more comfortable with the President elect every day, knowing that he isn’t going to pull through on the stupidity that he was promising, and possibly govern with common sense and a set of acorns.
I’d love to have this conversation again in four years just to see how many of his pre-election promises to you he kept.
171. Kathy C | 12.08.08
Um–there is no issue here. Obama was born in Hawaii and, contrary to some comments here, he *has* produced a birth certificate. It’s the same document as the birth certificate for my son, also born in Hawaii. The birth announcements appeared contemporaneously in the local Honolulu newspapers in August 1961 (check microfiche). It would have been a heck of a conspiracy indeed for someone to convince the newspapers to run fake birth announcements for a baby they expected to become president of the U.S. someday. Hawaii was (and is) part of the United States. It’s a done deal; there’s nothing to be resolved and those of you who are too stupid to figure that out need to get over it.
My father was born in India and he was, like Obama’s father, a British subject. My mother was, like Obama’s mother, born and raised in America (and white). I was, like Obama, born in America in 1961. I’m a U.S. citizen. Period. And so is he. There is more than a hint of racism in these insinuations and we all know it.
172. Nick | 12.08.08
Is Donofrio trying to say that if some other country claims a person’s citizenship according the *their* laws, than that person cannot be president of the U.S.? So if say Nicaragua passed a law given all U.S. citizen’s Nicaraguan citizenship at birth, then no one could ever become President? I just don’t see how the laws of another country can prevent someone from being President of ours. Doesn’t sound right to me. This article must be missing something important, or else it’s getting too easy for people to get law degrees.
173. southern man | 12.08.08
I’ll put it like this. I’ll keep my money and my guns. You keep the “change”.
174. catpurrson | 12.08.08
It doesn’t matter whether both of his parents were NOT American citizens. Under the 14th Amendment he is a citizen. Read it and weep:
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
Seems to me that the Constitution is defining two types of citizenship here: naturalized and born in the United States, i.e., “natural born citizen.”
What part of this doesn’t anyone understand? This is a pitiful commentary on just how bad our school systems are when people can’t read the Constitution and understand it and flunk basic history.
175. goofygus | 12.08.08
does obama pay you followers with the 750 million?
i am amazed by how virulent you obama supporters are when someone QUESTIONS anything about the big-O (not Oprah)
176. Ohioholic | 12.08.08
So, if a birth certificate issued by a state agency is not adequate proof of citizenship, what is? I would sure like to know, because we will all need to go prove our citizenships if we want to have any sort of dealings where citizenship is required.
Also, after we define this new requirement, what kind of proof we will we require that this requirement is met? Video evidence of the birth, with a doctor holding up a GPS locator showing the exact location of the brithing room, while the mother and father swear on a Bible that they are the real parents? You people are ridiculous.
177. Ohioholic | 12.08.08
So, if a birth certificate issued by a state agency is not adequate proof of citizenship, what is? I would sure like to know, because we will all need to go prove our citizenships if we want to have any sort of dealings where citizenship is required.
Also, after we define this new requirement, what kind of proof we will we require that this requirement is met? Video evidence of the birth, with a doctor holding up a GPS locator showing the exact location of the brithing room, while the mother and father swear on a Bible that they are the real parents? You people are ridiculous.
179. Matt | 12.08.08
This is stupid. The law of the United States, as mandated by the constitution, is that if you are born in the country on its soil, then you are a United States Citizen in any court of law, regardless of whatever citizenship your parents have. In the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), the Supreme Court ruled that a person who
* is born in the United States
* of parents who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of a foreign power
* whose parents have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States
* whose parents are there carrying on business and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity of the foreign power to which they are subject
becomes, at the time of his birth, a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the 14th amendment of the Constitution. What a complete moron…
180. Kevin | 12.08.08
I am an American citizen, my wife is a citizen of the Philippines. Our three year old son was born in the US and is therefor a US citizen. That’s according to the (USCIS) United States Citizenship and Immigration Service, which is the name that the Department of Immigration and Naturalization was given when it was absorbed into the Department of Homeland security. It’s no wonder to us that the Supreme Court would not hear the case.
181. troy | 12.08.08
What an Idiot! Nothing is gonna stop Obama becoming president! The Sooner Bush Goes the better for the country and the world!
182. Chefgon | 12.08.08
Born in Hawaii = Natural Born Citizen
The nationality of your parents does not come into play AT ALL in the definition. Even if both of his parents were illegal immigrants he would still be a Natural Born Citizen. There is absolutely no debate or grey area in this issue whatsoever.
183. Samy | 12.08.08
To clarify Joe Biden’s position here… it is quite unique. He actually won TWO elections November 4th, 2008; Vice President of the US and US Senator for Delaware. He could/would not step down until he knew what would happen. As it turns out…
“Joe Biden’s Senate seat will be filled by Edward “Ted” Kaufman, a longtime aide to the Vice President-elect. Delaware Gov. Ruth Ann Minner announced the appointment this afternoon.” (November 24, 2008)
Reference: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/11/24/politics/horserace/entry4630589.shtml
184. mike brown | 12.08.08
The fact is that the State of Hawaii certified his citizenship. Absent reasonable evidence, that is the end of the argument. The reason that he hasn’t released any other copies is because the STATE of his birth has claimed him as a natural born citizen. To release further records would be an admission that he has something to prove, and he DOESN’T.
More importantly, after 2000 and the presidency being decided by a state where the govenor had a massive conflict of interest, then 8 years of Enron writing energy policy and Halliburton gunning down civilians on my tax dollar. I DON’T CARE, I JUST WANT MY COUNTRY BACK.
185. James Lander | 12.08.08
The Constitution of the U.S. is the law of the land. That is why this issue matters. Show us the birth certificate. What is he hiding?
186. Bryan | 12.08.08
To Cathy #55:
> Since Obama’s father and mother were married before he was born, would his father have had dual USA and British citizenship?
No.
> My understanding is that when a foreign woman marries a US man, she acquires US citizenship.
She does not. She becomes a “permanent resident”.
To become a *citizen*, a spouse must be naturalized through the same process as all non-citizens.
I am proud to say that my aunt, who is in this situation, is soon to take the oath of citizenship.
187. Nick | 12.08.08
Please recall that the Bush/Cheney ticket was, and is, clearly illegal according to the Twelfth Amendment of the Constitution: “The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves…”
It was only after Cheney was nominated that someone pointed out this was clearly illegal and unconstitutional, since both Bush and Cheney lived and legally resided in Texas. Cheney then “moved” to his vacation home in Wyoming…
…but I didn’t see any of the Republicans having trouble with an unquestionably unconstitutional Presidential ticket.
188. MartialWalker | 12.08.08
These guys should continue to file lawsuits about this for the next four year, garnering $5,000,000 from Republicans for each lawsuit. T
189. Will | 12.08.08
I can’t even believe this extremist non-sense made it’s way to the courts! These people are nuts.
190. Don | 12.08.08
The supreme court can ignore the constitution and cowtow to public hype… playing it safe after the Bush recount outrage. However, this will not go away. Never. Not until B. Hussein O. releases the documents in question. C’mon Barry… the public deserves an answer. Put it to rest, if you can!
191. Dave Michael | 12.08.08
Just to clarify, the birth certificate that everyone is happily pointing to is not the original. If you look in the bottom left hand corner it refers to the form being revised in November 2001, with reference to a laser printer. The entire document was clearly prepared on a computer (see the font? Notice it wasn’t type in?). The hospital or county should have a copy of the ORIGINAL birth certificate, which this clearly isn’t.
That being said, I think Obama was born in Hawaii, but you need to understand what the argument is here. To end this speculation, simply produce the original birth certificate, not some computer generated version.
192. Melanie | 12.08.08
1. Is there a uniform procedure for determining whether a candidate for president meets the minimum qualifications for that office, viz., age, citizenship, etc., prior to initiating a campaign or securing a party nomination? If so, should this procedure be re-assessed for efficacy, such that a satisfactory decision can be reached prior to an election? If not, should such a procedure be established for future elections?
2. Are there any clear and rational means of determining whether the greater wisdom in the present circumstances lies in (a) permitting the elected candidate to assume office regardless of the outcome of the present Constitutional debate, or in (b) resolving this debate decisively prior to allowing any change in administration to proceed? If so, what are those means?
193. Jesus Saves! | 12.08.08
What the big fuss was about was that he lived in Indonesia shortly after he was born and as a child.
194. Brad | 12.08.08
People, read the whole thing before posting
the supreme court should not have thrown it out
#25 posted
Chapter XIX, paragraph 212, “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.
Using that paragraph his parents (plural) were not citizens and later it says: follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.
His father was not a citizen so therefore he should not have the right to be president. That or just change the way it is phrased but one of those options need to happen.
195. Scott Cad | 12.08.08
I think the SCOTUS should hear this and finally clear up any questions about “natural born citizens”. I have read every word of the constitution and it does leave an argument by stating “those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers”.
I didn’t vote for Obama but I do think he is eligible for the job and wish him massive success! We need to turn the country and no matter who is in charge I would rather them succeed than to have to wait for four more years.
196. rokdevil | 12.08.08
Perhaps this demonstrates the need to get back to a more strictly followed constitution? Personally I don’t know where Mr. Obama is a natural born citizen or a naturalized one but I am disappointed that so many people just want to “get on with it.” Perhaps we should just get on with sentencing the prisoners at Guantanamo instead of letting a jury decide their guilt or innocence? Perhaps we should simply invade a sovereign nation and overthrow its government and justify it with lies instead of fact? oh wait, we already did that and the entire nation pretty much just watched American Idol instead of questioning the administration. I would much rather have a strict pursuit of the law in governing presidential candidate requirements than a loosely followed one. I suppose that I’m just tired of knowing that elected officials aren’t representing the people. I’m looking for a little constitutional extremism.
197. Fear and Loathing in East Brunswick | 12.08.08
Finally, thanks to Leo “Dumbass” Donofrio East Brunswick is on the map! We are out of the shadows of North Brunswick, South Brunswick, New Brunswick. Woohooo! Yeah!
198. Airin | 12.08.08
Seems odd that all this strife should arrive just because his mother was at an age similar to that of The Virgin Mary. If it was right for God, why not for Barack’s father?
199. GregH | 12.08.08
“By the way, had John McCain won, we’d likely see the same thing happening.”
Sure it would. And Sarah Palin doesn’t talk out of both sides of her mouth right?
200. Ed Patrick | 12.08.08
HEY WHO CARES. What if he’s from Austraila? If he can run the country 1/4 as good as “W” then were still ahead.
201. pudentane | 12.08.08
repKons are such a bunch of sore losers. They wrecked America over the last 8 years, and have just perpetrated the hugest rip off in the history of the universe, but its not enough for them. They don’t understand why anyone would be inclined to try another way.
Morons.
203. K Peiris | 12.08.08
So when it comes to Presidentship, “Natural Born”.
When you want to recruit to serve for Pentagon dirty jobs, “Born Anywhere” would do.
USA, the opportunistic hypocrites.
204. Bubba | 12.08.08
Why not just impeach OSAMA’S *** NOW & avoid the Christmas rush????
Everyone KNOWS he ain’t worth a **** anyway!!!!
205. stonedogg | 12.08.08
Wait. Haven’t people of non-US-citizen parentage been accepted as “natural born citizens” of the United States for hundreds of years? I mean, haven’t they always gotten every privelege and responsibility that those of us whose parents actually were US citizens? So let’s think really hard. What’s so diffent about Obama? Hmmm… what could it be? Hmmm…
206. MDL | 12.08.08
OK, let’s assume that Obama has something to hide here. Let’s assume that he has some reason to keep his original birth certificate a secret. If so, his parents, grandparents, etc, would have had to think, in 1961, “Hey, let’s post a false birth announcement, just in case little baby Barrack wants to run for president some day.” They would have had include the people at the local newspaper in that, as well.
Now let’s fast-forward. Little baby Barrack does, indeed, decide to run for president, which is good because otherwise all of the hard work of his parents would have gone to waste. He gets all of the paperwork together in 2007, as has been documented. But - darn it, he needs some certification of his birth. So he includes God only knows how many people in his campaign, as well as people in Hawaii, in his vast conspiracy. He has a fake certificate of birth made. And lo and behold, it fools EVERYONE. Except for a few people on the internet who have no experience as investigators or constitutional scholars or anything else except blogging and being angry and paranoid.
But, they are brave and stand up and speak out against this conspiracy. And no one - NO ONE - involved in the conspiracy comes forward to give any evidence. More people start checking out the facts, and no one - NO ONE - finds a single shred of evidence that the certificate is a fake.
Are we really supposed to think this is the case?
If there was any credence to this at all, don’t you think the McCain campaign would have been all over it? Do you really think that some internet blogger knows more about constitutional law and forgery than people who are recognized experts? At some point, common sense has to take over. This argument holds no water, and is a waste of both time and resources.
During the campaign, I heard the phrase “low-information voters”. A pretty scary idea. What’s worse, though, are these “low-information voters” who THINK they are “HIGH-information voters.” Yikes….
207. Blondie | 12.08.08
I can’t believe how ignorant some people can be. If you are born in the US then you are a citizan. Just ask any of the many children born to illegal immigrants living here in America. Any of these children, and it doesn’t matter where or how there parents got here, can run for president. If you don’t like that law you’d better change it now, because many of these children and grandchildren of illegal immigrants already hold office here in the US at either the city, county, state and yes even Federal level. All of these children, like it or not, are also eligible for government programs such as WIC, Food Stamps, Medicaid, ect. Don’t like it? Better ask you congressman to change it now.
Many people who live in the border states have said it many times. The law needs to be changes about who is a Natural Born Citizan, because, believe it or not, many women from Mexico will wait until they feel labor pains before they decide to go “shopping” or “visiting” in the US. The kid is born-it’s a citizan- and guess who gets to pay for it. The tax payors. And guess what? NEITHER of the child’s parents were US citizans. He was born here and that is enough. And guess what else, if that child wants to run for president, he/she can, EVEN THOUGH NEITHER of it’s parents were US citizans.
Don’t like the law? Do something about it and maybe it will help curb the tide of illegal immigration. I’m not saying that all of them come here for the freebies, but a great many do. And guess what else? The more they have, the more benefits they get. Oh and let’s not forget how tragic it would be to tear apart a family. So they all get to stay now. And guess who pays for it.
That law just really needs to be changed. Not because of Obama, but because it is so easily abused.
208. robert lopez | 12.08.08
for all u who don’t know the law when it comes to natural born citizen. first, if u are born in any us terr. or states or military base, u are automatic a us citizen at birth nomatter if none or one or both of the parents are us citizen. second if u are born in any other place outside the us terr or states, u become a us citizen at birth if both your parents are citizen, both not eiher one. third, the ony way u can become a us citizen at birth ant not born in us terr or states when only one of the parents is us citizen, is thru the mother under two instances; eiher if the mother is divorce a the time of birth or the birth was out of weblock plus the mother must have live a consecutive one year in the us before traveling and given birth outside us terr.
209. Heidi | 12.08.08
Just to address the George Washington example that keeps coming up. The constitution specifically addresses the scenario of those who were born in the colonies. “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.” George Washington was a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the constitution, was over 35 and had been a resident for over 14 years and was therefore eligible to be President.
210. Jimmy | 12.08.08
Donofrio’s a D-bag. After 2 years of campaigning and vetting down to the most miniscule and mundane of details, he thinks he knows something the rest of us don’t. So what’s Mr. D-bag’s big plan if he wins the suit? Have new elections before 01/20/09?? Good luck buddy!
I view Donofrio as a modern John Wilkes Boothe: In that Boothe thought he was doing something extraordinary and heroic, only to find out all the Southerners he counted on for support thought he was just a sore loser. So they turned him in to the Union.
211. richCares | 12.08.08
Hey, you “Birthers” better write to the Supreme Court as they don’t have your resources. They are completely unaware of all your fantastic proof. Tell them it’s a massive conspiracy with Hawaii, Gen Jones, McCain, Bush, Rice, Powell, Biden all involved (not to mention 66 million voters). Be a patriot and write to the court so will they stop dismissing these cases. True Americans will appreciate your actions. You may even get a prize (a straight Jacket)
212. conrruption | 12.08.08
The Republicans cannot stop the BS. Fear mongering is part of their party. They will not let it rest.
What I cannot believe is that there are people that feed on this ****.
213. Susan Doolittle | 12.08.08
Ed Weirdness –your command of the English language and your poor grammar is an insult to the U.S. Constitution.
214. GOD | 12.08.08
now can she sue mccain for running even though he wasn’t born in the usa as required? mthnx…
215. Paul Saindon | 12.08.08
Try to find out if the guy voted in is actually eligible to even hold the office as POTUS…. your a conspiracy theorist. And for some reason your a racist too. I don’t get it. Why so quick to call names and poke fun. Is the constitution not to be taken seriously? Are we not to adhere to fundemental rule of law?
Lets all educate ourselves for a moment here. This case does actually have some merit. You have to be a natural born citizen to be the President. Right? The fact that noone has ever verified him to be a natural born does raise some concerns. Why is Obama ducking the issue? Why did he post a certificate of live birth rather than an official birth cert? (there is a huge difference between the two. the certificate of live birth is used to verify age, anyone can get one no matter where you were born, the birth certificate will list the hospital, doctor, witness, time, etc…)
Mr. Obama… Please just release the long version vaulted copy to end this issue once and for all. Do we all not realize that this would take less than a 5 minute phone call to the Hawaiian office of Vital Records. Issue Over! Oh wait. I forgot. He refuses to even comment on the matter. He’s too busy changing things.
216. Larry | 12.08.08
The Supreme Court is the sole interpreter of the Constitution. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. The Court has spoken. This is the same court by the way who ruled that GWB would be President - barring the new members appointed by GWB. All the new defenders of the American way who have popped up to press this issue should be delighted that the system has worked as it is supposed to - whether you like the result or not. You should also take heart in the knowledge that unless he accomplishes the complete, total and utter annihilation of every square centimeter of land between the Canadian and Mexican borders, Obama can’t do any worse than GWB. Meanwhile, you can bide your time and wait to vote for Palin-Jindal in 2012.
217. Dee | 12.08.08
Lord give us grace!!! Please get a life and get over it. The man won the votes of MOST of the American people fair and square. In this country, that is how it works. He is President-Elect!
218. John Adams | 12.08.08
Obama is not out of the woods on this yet. The better case has, IMHO, been filed by Alan Keyes in California Sacramento Superior Court Case No. 8000096. As Mr. Keyes was on the ballot with Mr. Obama he will not suffer the lack of standing that most of the other cases were dismissed under. Mr. Keyes has named Obama, Biden, Debra Bowen the California Secretary of State and the 55 California Democratic Electors. It asks the Court that if Ms. Bowen cannot produce evidence that Obama meets the Constitutional “natural born” standard that the 55 Obama electoral votes not be certified.
There are other cases now serving discovery in Hawaii which seek a copy of the actual birth certificate that Hawaii has announced that they are holding but that Obama has refused to sign a release and pay $10.00 and produce. Andy Martin has filed a motion for reconsideration from the idiotic ruling by the Hawaiian court that there is insufficient public interest in Obama’s original birth certificate to order it produced in fear of the impact it would have on the Hawaiian public privacy interest. That case will be appealed.
For most people production of the Certificate of Live Birth, the one that shows the name of the hospital and the names of the doctors that are verifiable facts will end this. Obama has stated that he was born in Hawaii, and that should be evidenced on the Certificate of Live Birth. That information is not listed on the Certification of Live Birth that Obama produced. The Certificate of Live Birth is easily obtainable as noted by Obama signing a release and paying $10.00. The question that is driving this for many people is why he has not produced a copy of it as if it confirms that he was born in a hospital in Hawaii that should answer the question if Obama is a “natural born citizen”.
If the birth certificate does not confirm that Obama was born in a hospital in Hawaii, for example it says he was born at home, in a taxi or anywhere else than a hospital there will be further inquiry needed. For example, why did Obama lie about this?
The laws in the 1960’s in Hawaii were very lax and were changed in the 1970’s to tighten up the requirements for registering infants. So births in the 1960’s require production of the Certificate to provide verifiable facts like the name of the hospital and the names of the doctors. Until Obama produces this $10.00 piece of paper there are many people that consider him ineligible to hold the office.
In addition to the Keyes case, there are 20 or more cases peculating around the country. There will be challenges made at the Electoral College. So this is not over as this article seems to imply.
The hyper technical arguments by Donfrio are going to be difficult to pursue. For many of us we simply want Obama to provide a copy of his birth certificate that confirms that he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as Obama is on record saying. If the birth certificate says that he was born at home or in a taxi, or other location then further verification will be needed.
219. Hamish Henderson | 12.08.08
All I can say is “Hoooooray !”
It’s been a long time coming this new world order.
It’s amazing to think that Obama is so perfect for this time. He himself says he is neither black nor white. Personally, I don’t think it could get any better because if he was one or the other, it would be business as usual. The fact that he had a white mother and black father is the exact recipe for this nation to start to move past what has held it back for so long. It won’t be plain sailing but with the integrity and humility of this great man, I think that we’re destined for much brighter shores. I’d say this is the Evolution of the Presidency and if you disagree, watch this:
http://www.spivideo.com/allthepresidents_short
220. CarlP | 12.08.08
It is an interesting argument, that the physical act of being born on US soil is somehow negated by having dual citizenship as a matter of convention, that somehow the two are mutually exclusive but Donofrio fails to make an argument, much less a case.
Where was Donofrio when the country elected Bush & Cheney, both from Texas? In hindsight, that would have been a much better case for him to take to the Supreme Court.
221. ende | 12.08.08
People need to relax. This sort of scrutiny is absolutely necessary. Why? Because it is written in the words of the constitution. I see no reason why these cases against Obama’s presidency wouldn’t be dismissed.. in other words, folks should relax, nothing will come of this. But it still has to take place.
Donofrio makes the same allegations against McCain (which I personally think is a much stronger case, though moot point now.. McCain was born in Panama; the constitution states that the president must be born IN the UNITED STATES). I bet the folks getting all bent out of shape over this would be quite supportive if it was McCain’s eligibility under the magnifying glass.
222. bill | 12.08.08
hey “philly lawyer” the 14th amendment was ratified in 1886. so george washington was legal…and if you are a philly lawyer god help your clients
223. lame | 12.08.08
I see over and over again the demand for Obama to show his ‘vault’ birth certificate, while that might satisfy the curiosity of the details of his birth, it will not decide whether he is natural born or not. If there is a valid case to be reviewed, those bringing the case need to provide evidence of why Obama should not be considered a natural born citizen. Obama’s mother was definitely an American citizen, that in of itself means that he was a natural born citizen, no matter where he took his first breath. If at some point after that Obama actively renounced his citizenship, that would be significant. Barring some evidence that shows Obama actively gave up his citizenship as an adult, of his own free will, then there is no case. In the mean time, the only bone of contention is what Natural born means, and in the instance of US citizenship, it is very clear if we use some simple logic: There are two types of US citizens (C), Natural (A) and Naturalized (B), If C, then A or B. If A, then not B. If B then not A. So the only question then remaining would be did Obama gain his citizenship through the process of naturalization? If he did, there would be a clear paper trail. If it is a simple matter of law, the answer is clear: Obama is a natural born citizen of the USA. That is a requirement to be president of the USA, Obama meets that requirement. Any one saying that the onus is on Obama to prove his citizenship has an ulterior motive. If someone has the confidence to make such a claim, then they should have the evidence to back up such a claim, not just some flimsy conspiracy theory. Obama may not meet your ideological, racial, or political standards to be president of the USA, but he undoubtedly meets the constitutional requirements.
224. David | 12.08.08
Leo Donofrio is a nut. Please ignore him. Courts, please put him in jail for wasting your time with void lawsuits.
225. Matthew | 12.08.08
Donofrio is a self-centered publicity hound, and nothing more. Pathetic. What’s REALLY funny is how many conservatives bought into this nonsense. Where are all their protests about ‘frivolous lawsuits’? And weren’t they worried about ‘legislating from the bench’?
I swear Republicans have never met a double-standard they couldn’t embrace.
226. FV | 12.08.08
What a legal lightweight to even think this was possible.
His Mother was a US Citizen and Hawaii was a US State.
This idiot would have an easier time proving that McCain wasn’t born on US soil.
228. Kid Funkadelic | 12.08.08
I seriously think they want the “original” to tear it up and say that he does not exist.He settled this months ago. He also a constitutional Law authority.Their strategy is to sue him for the next four years.It not going to work.
229. Sable | 12.08.08
Wowwww, guys, seriously? Um, you have to be a NATURAL BORN citizen of the US to be eligible to hold the office of POTUS. Again, not just a citizen, but a natural born citizen — that means if you have dual citizenship, you’re out of the running. The Founding Fathers were very clear about this, and it is the Constitution, which evidently some of you need to read.
Mr. Denofrio brought this to the Supreme Court (also known as SCOTUS) because it is vital that we continue to respect the Constitution. If we ignore one small portion of it, who’s to say what part will be next? He has said many times that had McCain won the election, he would be doing this.
Also, let’s stop whining about people “wasting the time” of the Supreme Court. Are you kidding me, or have you forgotten the Anna Nicole Smith case that they heard?…
Oh, and to those who have said that fearmongering is a Republican staple — the Democratic Party does it, too. Remember all the panic they tried to create over McCain’s relationship with Bush and one comment about the economy? Please. The problem in Washington is that there are too many Republicans and Democrats, and not nearly enough Conservatives and Liberals.
230. Rumshop reseacrher | 12.08.08
What I see and read from some of you, begs the question of; How many of you like Mr. *** his name are NATURAL BORN IDIOTS!
231. Ken | 12.08.08
Trey,
The place of birth is what counts as whether you are a US citizen. Now Obama was born in Hawaii. That state is a state of the United States, therefore, Obama is a US citizen by birth. It makes no difference if he went to Indonesia or another country with a parent or lived in Inonesia for a time. He return to a state in the United States. Dual-citizenship covers a different area of the law.
Lets hope Obama can work with Congress to get us out of this mess. A president cannot do no more than what Congress or the Supreme Court approve of him doing. The preside can make a treaty with a foreign country without Congress’s approval but it has to pass the Senate’s approval after the president makes a treaty. I hope this will help some readers.
232. Dale | 12.08.08
Obama and the DNC are the ones wasting the judicial systems time with this issue. If it’s so irrelevant why don’t they just fork over the $15 to get a copy of the “vault BC”, show it to us and get on with the real issues we face.
But, if they fail to do so, they must not be allowed to thumb their nose at our constitution. They are promoting the suspicions that there is something that they don’t want us to see. The longer this goes on the greater the suspicions.
This is not going away. Obama needs to give clarity to this issue immediately because the longer it goes the worse it’s going to be if he isn’t eligible to serve.
233. Susan Nasus | 12.08.08
Get over it whiners, the people have spoken. These same psycho-paths would be tripping over themselves to have Schwarzenegger approved to be Prez. (And you KNOW it)
————————————
“Flatter and PRAISE me, or you will be tortured in **** forever!” - Jesus paraphrased
234. ZMT | 12.08.08
To #37: No one is fighting in court to keep the “Certificate of Live Birth” under wraps. The only court case was brought by Denofrio, and he is specifically not fighting for this “Certificate of Live Birth”. If you read his own words, you will see that he is not contending that Obama wasn’t born here. Rather, he raised a completely different point: that a person whose parent is not a U.S. Citizen cannot be considered a U.S. Citizen, even though the person was born in the U.S.
This concept is laughable, since the principle of having U.S. Citizenship simply because of having been born here has always been legally valid in this country. If even one of Denofrio’s ancestors came here as non-U.S. Citizens, it would mean that none of their progeny, including Denofrio, could be U.S. Citizens, either.
The Supreme Court agreed with the laugability of this argument and refused to even hear the case.
235. mf | 12.08.08
The idiocy in this blog is dissapointing… and this article was so obviously biased (why would you cancel your plane tickets just because Obama won’t be president?).
Greg (comment #43), I agree with you in part. The natural-born citizen rule does seem somehwhat irrelevant today. However, it’s ridiculous that you’re suggesting we just ignore. You want to IGNORE part of the Constitution? That’s exactly what Bush has been doing for years! There IS an amendment process; we should use that instead, but ignoring the Constitution is a horrible, horrible idea.
NJ Citizen (comment #25) was the first person I saw trying to make sense of this rule, and I thank him for that. It’s ambiguous, and it’s at least a shame the Supreme Court rejected this issue. I guess the precedent is set, though, that dual citizenship counts as natural born.
All in all, I have to agree with joe.schuren (comment #52). Eventually, the definition of natural born citizen will need to be worked out, if it isn’t already. But, whether you agree with him or not (which I don’t), you’d have to be a fool to question Barack Obama’s -loyalty- to the country. You can’t get through the system and be elected for president if you’re a terrorist or a British spy or something.
236. justin | 12.08.08
seriously, if we need to show a real birth cert to get a job, how come he doesn’t have to show it to get THE job??
regardless of citizenship questions, i just want to see that and I can shut my father up…
but seriously folks, ‘prima facie’ evidence means it’s good until someone actually needs concrete evidence. it doesn’t you can hide behind it.
237. fling | 12.08.08
it’s all about the fruit from a different tree. When you look over the fence and the lady hanging the clothes is you, then you see that the mirror is in the other hand. The simplicity of the idea is only lengthened by the circular haziness of the observers intentions… if he chooses to participate.
239. up2time | 12.08.08
Some of you are stupid, you still live in thecivil war times, I was born in america but i wouldn’t show any of you my birth certifate if i didn’t want to, SOME OF YOU ACT LIKE YOU ARE THE FBI, SHOW ME THIS ARE THAT RIGHT NOW, GO OBAMA
240. frank | 12.08.08
Let me see if I follow this correctly. Barack has a birth certificate that only states that he was born, but does not prove citizenship. In Hawai`i there are two kinds of types of ways to get qualify for a birth certificate - one is to prove you were born somewhere -potentially outside the US, and the other is to actually be born in HI and to have some proof of it. So If he was born outside the US to a US mother, but because of the dad claimed to be a British subject, then his parents of he would have to assert or ask for his citizenship. The document in HI either is not proof of assertion of citizenship at birth or worse, assert he is a British subject and the Hawai`i birth certificate merely stands as proof of when he was born because the law in that state does not require citizenship to acquire a birth certificate.
But the petitioner must show some proof that he didn’t assert his citizenship at birth. The State of Hawai`i is silent on the issue - unless the actual birth certificate asserts he is a British subject. So as long as he doesn’t release it the petitioner can only say we don’t know if he is a natural born citizen, while the print out and Obama himself may provide weak proof, but at least some proof that he could be a natural born citizen. Then the question of who would have standing to sue to enforce this also comes to mind. The Electoral College maybe?
Fun stuff for lawyers. The S.Ct are a bunch of weenies (Scalia and Thomas excluded) and won’t touch it with a ten foot pole.
241. ho ho ho ho | 12.08.08
Isn’t a Certificate of Live Birth a birth certificate? The answer is “yes.” And Hawai’i has released Obama’s.
Any child born inside a Territory of the United States is a citizen.
Time for a new conspiracy, folks. I’m sure you’ll have one soon.
242. garalinok | 12.08.08
Obama is the front man for the shadow goverment. He will be the man to “soffen” the blow to you all when it comes. You that are “hoping” for “change” have a very rude awakening very , very soon. Obaba dosen’t even know what he is going to have to do…or tell the american people. Th new world order is coming! soon
243. Jackson | 12.08.08
I doubt this will be the last we hear about it. The other suits will be interesting to watch unfold, especially the one filed by Alan Keyes of America’s Independent party.
Regarding the other cases — wouldn’t it be cheaper and easier for Obama to just pay the 10 bucks to get the state of Hawaii to release his original birth certificate than to pay the three (three???) law firms he has hired to represent him on this issue and to keep his college records private? Why hire lawyers if everything was kosher? What’s up with that?
Question — Does he pay for these lawyers out of his own pocket or does it come from the campaign money he raised since technically he’s not officially elected until the electorate votes? Anyone know? What happens if by some weird reason one of these lawsuits proves that he knowingly misled the American people? Will the good people that donated to his campaign get their money back? 
244. john doe | 12.09.08
2 years and almost or over a billion dollars spent on this election and now they wanted us to believe that obama is not a us born citizen? very funny!
get over it and save your own dignity and go live quietly until next election.
245. Vic | 12.09.08
The fact remains,there is no proof of birth at any of the Hospitals that he claims he was born at!! FACTS YOU SAY!!! Yes!! The attending physician does not have to be alive but their is recordings(”mandated”)that he must sign the birth certificate, record the time and date of birth, apply certain medications after the birth of the child,there is no record of birth at both hospitals of this event happening. DON’T BELIEVE ME, CALL A FRIEND IN HAWAII OR GO THERE YOURSELF AND RESEARCH THIS (Go luck getting pass security). Obama is a Fraud, prove me wrong by producing “not” his birth certificate, but “ANY” recording of birth in these two hospitals!!!! CAN ANY OF YOU BARRY FANS DO THIS!!! IF NOT, THEN GUESS WHAT THE TINFOILS CONTINUE!!! The point is REVEAL YOUR RECORDS BARRY OBAMA!!!
246. JeffM | 12.09.08
“I agree with Denofrio except that he does not explain why having dual citizenship at birth necessarily implies “not natural born citizen”.”
He has clearly stated why. Do some research on de Vattel’s 1758 works on “LAW OF NATIONS”.
And yes, this is the “Holy Grail” of Constitutional Law. All the framers used his law as reference to the Constitution. Make no mistake. SCOTUS uses it all the time. Shall I cite all the briefs and cases referring to his work?
Obama is ineligible. Natural Born Citizen = born on U.S. land from U.S. citizens. The father dictates citizenship. Obama’s father was a British citizen. Therefore, Obama Jr. was a British citizen.
But I wouldn’t expect the poor ignorant people of America to understand CIVICS at this level. I blame the public school system for this.
247. Jackson | 12.09.08
I doubt this will be the last we hear about it. The other suits will be interesting to watch unfold, especially the one filed by Alan Keyes of America’s Independent party.
Regarding the other cases — wouldn’t it be cheaper and easier for Obama to just pay the 10 bucks to get the state of Hawaii to release his original birth certificate than to pay the three (three???) law firms he has hired to represent him on this issue and to keep his college records private? Why hire lawyers if everything was kosher? What’s up with that?
Question — Does he pay for these lawyers out of his own pocket or does it come from the campaign money he raised since technically he’s not officially elected until the electorate votes? Anyone know? What happens if by some weird reason one of these lawsuits proves that he knowingly misled the American people? Will the good people that donated to his campaign get their money back?
248. Francisco | 12.09.08
So, if, for example, theoretically speaking, some country decided, out of the blue, that in its constitution anyone that was born in the USA is also a citizen in that fictional country… that would make it impossible for anyone on the USA to become president?
249. Cindy | 12.09.08
Any country could make a law stating that all Americans are dual citizens of that country or all American women are dual citizens or every American over 35 is a citizen. Is the Supreme Court going to decide to allow every foreign countries the power to take away Americans’ rights at will? LOL Do Republicans have any common sense at all?
250. Erik Olson | 12.09.08
For better or worse, Obama is the president-elect and criticism of him will begin after he starts the job.
It is certainly a black mark against him, that he can’t honor the Constitution enough to produce the simple document to satisfy its conditions - which as one poster said, most of us are required to produce to work at an ordinary job. This is the guy who is going to take an oath to uphold the Constitution?
From what we know of Obama’s total lack of achievements in the field of law (he was president of Harvard Law, but did nothing) he is on record as believing “the founding fathers didn’t go far enough” in redistributing wealth - implying he thinks the Constitution is basically irrelevant.
252. seaweb | 12.09.08
How retarded. How embarassing.
Born in Hawaii. His Mom was an American citizen. That beats the first half dozen American presidents (all born Brits), doesn’t it? 68 million American citizens chose him. That beats most preceding presidents right there. And these same people contend that John McCain isn’t a citizen either?
Were these people raised in a kennel?
253. Greg | 12.09.08
“The whole constitution rule is ridiculous.”
Appended to message #43.
I’m NOT saying ignore the rule. I’m NOT saying ignore the Constitution. I am saying that this rule does not make any sense. Einstein was born in Germany. Jesus was born in Judea. Great people come from places found all over the world. Don’t we want great people leading our country?
The rule needs to be amended. All we need is an election of the people. This rule is on the borderline of racism. It excludes a citizen of the US from serving the country as the president because of the geographic location where they came into the world, not their values or talent. That’s not what this country is all about.
I was born in Florida. I grew up in New York. Big deal. Being born in Florida has absolutely no influence on me as a person. I could be super intelligent or super stupid. It has no basis. We need this rule amended.
254. richCares | 12.09.08
“Question — Does he pay for these lawyers out of his own pocket or does it come from the campaign money”
sorry to tell you but Obama’s not involved here
one example Berg case:
go too link and look who is respondants lawyer
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm
listed is:
Gregory G. Garre Solicitor General United States Department of Justice
you will get similar answers on all the court cases!
where do you get your **** from, WND?
so how many cases need to be dismissed before you take off your Tin Foil hat?
Maybe all you “Birthers” should send your brilliant comments to the Supreme Court, they don’t have your resources, so you can save the day. go do it, maybe they will stop dismissing those cases, give it a shot, show your patriotism! Tell them about the vast conspiracy witch involves State of Hawaii, US State Dept, Gen Jones, Gen Shinseki, Sec. Gates, Condi, Powell, McCain, even Bush is helping Obama, so write quickly, be a patriot, save the day, write them at:
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov
my neighbor wrote them, oh wait what’s that, some guys just showed up at my neighbors with a strait jacket!
255. richCares | 12.09.08
“Question — Does he pay for these lawyers out of his own pocket or does it come from the campaign money”
sorry to tell you but Obama’s not involved here
one example Berg case:
go too link and look who is respondants lawyer
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm
listed is:
Gregory G. Garre Solicitor General United States Department of Justice
you will get similar answers on all the court cases!
where do you get your **** from, WND?
so how many cases need to be dismissed before you take off your Tin Foil hat?
Maybe all you “Birthers” should send your brilliant comments to the Supreme Court, they don’t have your resources, so you can save the day. go do it, maybe they will stop dismissing those cases, give it a shot, show your patriotism! Tell them about the vast conspiracy witch involves State of Hawaii, US State Dept, Gen Jones, Gen Shinseki, Sec. Gates, Condi, Powell, McCain, even Bush is helping Obama, so write quickly, be a patriot, save the day, write them at:
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov
my neighbor wrote them, oh wait what’s that, some guys just showed up at my neighbors with a strait jacket!
256. Nixon | 12.09.08
Hawaii now prints computerized output instead of photocopying. It’s called progress. It’s called moving out of the dark ages.
The State-computer generated output is just as legal of proof as the original. The two are equal in all ways in front of the law. The document presented is now the legal document that Hawaii provides. Not only that, but even if Obama were born on Mars, he would be a natural born US citizen due to his mother being a US citizen. You are completely out of gas, as you are on all the other accusations you’ve tried all through the election.
Obama didn’t personally modernize Hawaii, and he doesn’t have to do anything more to prove anything to you tin-hatters. And he shouldn’t. Otherwise all he will ever do for the next 4-8 years would be to keep debunking every nutty falsehood you jokers can make up.
Close your eyes for a minute, clear your heads, and come to a Moment of Clarity. You LOST.
257. Craig | 12.09.08
Our country is run by lawyers. Is it wrong for citizens to be, or think like lawyers? I have no comment or opinion about the matter other than to say that it’s not wrong to question or try to understand anything.
258. richCares | 12.09.08
Maybe all you “Birthers” should send your brilliant comments to the Supreme Court, they don’t have your resources, so you can save the day. go do it, maybe they will stop dismissing those cases, give it a shot, show your patriotism! Tell them about the vast conspiracy witch involves State of Hawaii, US State Dept, Gen Jones, Gen Shinseki, Sec. Gates, Condi, Powell, McCain, even Bush is helping Obama, so write quickly, be a patriot, save the day, write them at:
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov
my neighbor wrote them, oh wait what’s that, some guys just showed up at my neighbors with a strait jacket!
259. Gotalife | 12.09.08
To paraphrase # 56 (by “R”)… what do we do *if* we discover that George Bush really didn’t win the election- for his first term- and that it really was a stolen election?
Since this is still an open question (and it is- LOTS of unresolved issues there), shouldn’t we be looking there instead of worrying about the truthfulness of Hawaii’s birth records? Either situation is kind of mind-boggling, but this current issue with Obama is a non starter. Clarence Thomas is just out for Obama because of Obama’s comment saying that he wouldn’t have nominated Clarence Thomas for Supreme Court if it had been up to him. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/16/obama-i-would-not-have-no_n_119366.html).
260. 70th virginian | 12.09.08
I think the question is simple. There are qualifications for being president, like it or not. Who has the responsibility to determine that a presidential candidate meets those requirements (however they are defined and clarified)? And do all citizens have a right to see the proof?
Did Obama meet them? If he produced legal documents that provide the proof from a state of the US, then regardless of what actually happened at his birth, the state of HI has provided the legal evidence by issuing the paperwork in the first place.
The questions for the SCOTUS should be (1) who confirms eligibility, (2) who has a right to verify that confirmation, (3) can official state documents proving citizenship be questioned at all or are they the final arbiter?
There are legal questions to be resolved here and the SCOTUS has the responsibility to clarify them so that legitimate questions are put to rest and illegitimate questions are labeled as such.
Both sides should stop whining and acting more knowledgeable than lawyers. If legal experts resolve the questions then we should all be happy. If legal experts all refuse to clarify legal issues then we should all fear for our rights. The constitution is the supreme law of the land and should be treated as such.
If we don’t like the constitution, we should change it. Until then, respect it. I wrote to my representatives and senators about the issue. Did you do anything besides complain on a blog? If not, then you aren’t part of the only correct process for doing anything about it.
261. John D. | 12.09.08
For the simple and clear evidence go to: http://www.ObamaCrimes.com ; latest informaion on the Burg vs. Obama US Supreme Court case.
262. Bill | 12.09.08
This is a Constitutional issue.
If the “Supreme Court” wishes to ignore something so important as the President
possible not being eligible to be the President, then what the **** else will
they ignore ?
But then the Supreme Court can do whatever it damned well wants to do - yes ?
I think we are being railroaded - being given the “bum’s rush.”
Do we run our country by the Rules or not? …if not, then anything goes.
We the people - why doesn’t Obama just prove his citizenship and then everyone
will shut up !?
263. tanarg | 12.09.08
According to my lights, the distilled question can be stated this way:
In 1961, would the United States government consider a child born in Hawaii of an American mother and a UK subject to have dual citizenship?
What might be helpful to the cause is if a lot of people were to pose this question to their local office of the State Department in their respective cities. I’m in Boston, so I can do it here.
What do you all think? Where are you located? Are you willing to pose this question - in writing or in person - in order to further the effort to arrive at an understanding of the true circumstances of Obama’s citizenship?
Let’s do it! Or do you see a flaw in my “magic question”?
[Background: I did read on a non-government site something about how the U.S. recognition of dual citizenship had changed in the last ten years, so perhaps in 1961, it wasn’t recognized. But it’s hard to believe that Osama Sr. would have been prevented from exercising his parental right to take the child to Kenya if he so chose. In that case, I cannot believe the U.S. would have prevented him and said it was because Osama Sr. did not give UK allegiance to his son at birth.
Here’s the site: http://www.uscitizenship.info/citizenship-library-dual.htm
And here’s the text:
4. I heard that the US and Canada don’t allow Dual Citizenship. Is this true?
This is incorrect. Both the US and Canada now allow their citizens to hold multiple citizenships. Most references to the contrary are out of date since this has been resolved for at least ten years in the case of the United States and over twenty in the case of Canada. Note that the respective governments often couch dual citizenship in negative terms as few governments like to lose control over their citizens.]
—–
Of course, we know that this is the text today:
264. Sable | 12.09.08
#234 - you would know all about conspiracies, wouldn’t you — I love the radical Dems who claim that 9/11 was a hoax.
Seriously though, you folks here do not understand the issue. Please educate yourselves on what a natural born citizen is, and then we’ll talk.
It may be an outdated concept, but it’s still in the Constitution - and again, if we disregard one part of the Constitution, well, that’s a precedent we don’t really want to set now is it?
265. Exasperated | 12.09.08
“Prima facie” translates, roughly, “on the face of it”. It absolutely does not mean “it’s good until someone actually needs concrete evidence.” It means self-evident. As in, the fact that he has produced this document makes it self-evident that he was born in that state, unless someone can provide hard evidence that proves he was not. Since that state was, at the time of his birth, a state, then he is a US citizen.
We have *never* required both parents (or even one parent) to also be a citizen when the child was born on US soil. Ergo, all three of my own children, born to a US citizen father but a non-citizen mother, are themselves natural born citizens, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails. That legal definition is the reason we have the phenomenon of “anchor babies” — natural born citizens born to non-citizen parents who then become the anchors that keep their entire families here. It is not complicated. It is not some overlooked or un-debated or un-investigated loophole; more than once legislation has been brought to limit citizenship to children born of at least one citizen parent, and the concept has been rejected every time. If you are born here, you are born a citizen. Just because you don’t like the result this time, and you’d be happier if the precedent could be overturned in this case, does not make Obama wrong or deceptive or crooked. Find something else to complain about that won’t make you look like idiots.
266. Tip Johnson | 12.09.08
Cut the ****. The arguments against Obama’s eligibility boil down to racism: No black people in the White House!
Brace yourselves, simpletons! It’s getting a lot more complex. Obama has announced he will upgrade federal buildings to “green” standards. That means black children will be running the red carpets of a green White House? Oh, stop the colors before my head explodes!
267. Teton | 12.09.08
Allow me to start with this:
I’d rather have a PATRIOTIC penguin to be President rather than an ELIGIBLE natural-born killer who annually victimized so many fellow american soldiers (for oil money?).
Think about this, there are millions and millions natural-born ‘american’ citizens who never leave the soil of America since their natural conceptions, yet care nothing beyond their noses (some even display flags of their ancestor’s countries in their front yards), while another ‘naturalized’ millions gave up their limbs, lives, spouses and more to defend the free world. Now tell me you law-thirsty (or, should I call after-hour campaigners?) your best idea about a good American citizen.
Yes, eligibility/legality IS important.
Only not the most one.
If you study how the America came to existence (rather than just memorizing the Constitution), you’ll agree with the Founding Fathers that America is first an IDEA; an idea believed sooo strong to be UNIVERSAL. UNIVERSAL, simply put it, means ANYBODY who stands for Liberty and Democracy can be and is inherently a truly American at heart.
It’s only a matter of materializing and defining this great idea that we need a territory, citizenship, plus all the ‘paper works’ we call Constitution and laws.
An address to ‘Observer’ (#50), I hope our schools teach more the other way around that the one you proposed: that THE Ideal IS the mother of anything we put on papers. Otherwise, we don’t need Judges and Juries; let’s just computerized our Constitution and laws so that we can hold a court in ABM-like terminals/booths (at least it’s better still than to let passers-by throw stones at a convict who’s buried to the neck).
Had the schools back then taught the way you wanted, there will be no America as we know it since America was brought to life by people WITH ideas (and hopefully will continue to be so), rather than an accidental product of reactive rebellions.
Dear Mr. Jackson (#236): the campaigning was over 5 weeks ago (and there’s no controversy in the ballots counting). Let’s face it or wait another 4 year.
Americans do not ask for Obama’s legal paper (some short-of-market lawyers maybe do); they ask instead for Obama’s loyalty to the American ideal, which he has shown, and therefor they voted for him.
I don’t buy that Ben Franklin, Geo. Washington, Thom Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, and all their caretaker gangs to this day are sort of non-religion fundamentalists nor that they wanted the Americans to be ones.
What if Obama is a Dakota Indian whose ancestors all the way down to his own grandchildren were born in this land? Anyone more American than he is?
I’m sure though, Mr. Denofrio will embark to find out if Obama’s place of birth is slightly above the 49th parallel and therefor he’s a Canadian Saskatchewan.
268. frank | 12.09.08
Certificate of Live Birth is a birth certificate, but because the state issues these to people who are born outside the US and its territories the printout does give no guidance as to whether he is a natural born citizen. The actual birth certificate may. The publishing of Obama’s birth in the paper, the testimony of family, his testimony, and the printout provide some circumstantial evidence that he is a natural born citizen, but the birth certificate may be the smoking gun if it says that he is was born a British subject or outside the US and it’s territoires. This is info not contained in the printout.
and Thomas can bring the cases to the other justices, but there is no way they will take up these cases. I’ll give great odds to anyone who wants
I like Obama and I still don’t think the Sup.Ct. will touch this with a ten foot pole. Scalia to wager that they will.
269. Brandon | 12.09.08
No one is obliged to show any belonging or stuff under his/her responsibility to anyone on the street just because he asks her to (or in order to keep him busy)!
Don’t be hypocrits, you’re just not very happy with the result of the election aren’t you? Neither am I, but that’s (democratic) life. You think you saw an opportunity, but I think you just aggravating your pain!
271. lookalike | 12.09.08
Solution to this?
Obama to show you his papers?
Are you nuts, empty headers?
Or just jealous.
He’s too busy to babysit you.
Stop wailin’ and get your milk bottle yourself.
I mean, read the Constituion and its amendments, proud citizens!
Or are you illiterate? Sorry ’bout that.
Then no papers need to be shown, you can’t read ‘em anyway.
272. chrisbrown1 | 12.09.08
Is there such a thing as wasting the time of the court?
If I remember correctly from the american TV law I learned as a child, it was called “contempt of court”. Bringing the same dubious “charges” (based on what? hearsay, at best more what I’d call tendentious smears) repeatedly should qualify as a contempt for the seriousness of any court. Some people are not to be taken seriously. Ain’t that right Thommy Jeffson?
Yours dubiously,
Chris Brown in Hamburg
274. Heartlander | 12.09.08
Pssst…, I tell you a secret:
Obama could certainly produce from scratch ANY paper required by the Constitution within minutes and IS JUST A PHONECALL AWAY. But I guess he prefers to rebuild this country for YOU and me than wasting his time dealing with your uneducated appeal.
275. conrruption | 12.09.08
To: Dale
“Obama and the DNC are the ones wasting the judicial systems time with this issue. If it’s so irrelevant why don’t they just fork over the $15 to get a copy of the “vault BC”, show it to us and get on with the real issues we face.”
Obama is at fault? Are you kidding? Sorry if I did not call it right but you sound like a Republican. Thing is the Republicans have been spewing about frivilous lawsuits for years.
Do you know or remember any of the details? Some issues have to be worked out by the courts when they are submitted.
For Obama to bend over to conspiracy theory BS like this is as stupid as this article. The next comment would be from the likes of you would be how much of a wimp he is. He is not even looking at what is happening but being informed so the real issues are being dealt with. Oversimplification means a lot. The author is making a point or they are oversimplified and don’t understand the point and the big picture.
276. Jimbo | 12.09.08
It’s obvious that the SCOTUS is simply part of this conspiracy. Who knows what they’ve been promised by BO. Also obvious is that the State of Hawaii is a part of this as well. Favorite son promises favors for one big favor. Factcheck.org says they’ve seen the real thing but they’re nothing but a liberal mouthpiece funded by big liberal dollars and terrorists who also have been promised big favors. Why won’t BO put this to rest? Because he can’t and he knows it. The world will now fall apart because of this. Amen.
277. Buckwheat19 | 12.09.08
I don’t wear a tinfoil hat and I support the president-elect, but this is about the constitution. No one is above that document. We have a right to know the truth and so far, Mr. Obama has not been forthcoming. There is something, maybe just something small, that is being hidden here.
278. Buckwheat19 | 12.09.08
To Greg, #43.
Don’t be so narrow minded. The Constitution, the law of our land, says that you must be a natural born citizen. This is the law that is currently in effect. If we don’t like it we can push for a constitutional admendment, but for now we and Mr. Obama, must abide by it. If he was being untruthful and violating the constitution, he has no one to blame but himself.
279. Chris W. | 12.09.08
Once again…..In order for Obama to receive classified information, not to mention any level above that, he need to have a SCI Background Check. At the level of President, I do not know who is actually responsible for doing this check…Secret Service, FBI, DoJ, etc. But you can bet IT WAS DONE!
So in order for this theory to be correct, now we are including almost the entire government in the cover-up. Maybe the original was destroyed in a fire, flood, lost…whatever, is it any of our business since he has produced a document that everyone except some self-righteous bloggers consider legal tender. I didn’t vote for the man but guess what, he’s my President and as an American, I will do what I can to help him get this country back on track! Are you all Patriotic enough to help him as well?
280. buckwheat19 | 12.09.08
c’mon Mr. Obama, show the papaers so we can be done with this craziness.
281. Joan | 12.09.08
“No one is obliged to show any belonging or stuff under his/her responsibility to anyone on the street just because he asks her to (or in order to keep him busy)!”
Yes, for all those who are fond of pasting the list of Obama’s “records” not available to the public:You are also granted another right under the Constitution, it is the right to privacy. No one is required to hand over personal information just because someone want to see it. All people in public office have personal records that are sealed and not available to the public, just as all citizens have them.
“Certificate of Live Birth is a birth certificate, but because the state issues these to people who are born outside the US and its territories the printout does give no guidance as to whether he is a natural born citizen.”
This is true tortured reasoning. I have relatives who were not born in a hospital, not unusual in rural areas. I also had to deal with Social Security when my mother was eligible. She was born at home, no birth certificate, no hospital certificate.
Social Security will recognize a date recorded in a family Bible as addquate proof in that situation. This notion that everyone who is born in this country will have all of this documentation is far from the truth.
Those that claim to be pursuing this out of concern for the Constitution are nothing more than sore loosers. Grow up, get over it. The Court has spoken and this will only live in the minds of those who want an excuse not to recognize our president. In which case: what makes you all think you are a patriot? If Tim McVeigh were alive, I’m sure he’d be one of those believing this nonsense.
282. Xander | 12.09.08
You know, all this money people are wasting on these types of frivilous cases could be put to better use. What was it, $62,000 this guy wasted on advertising? that coulda put a kid through college. Sad that people would rather waste money on this than on something that could make a difference.
283. TeaParty | 12.09.08
President Elect Obama: Show us the vault copy of your birth certificate!
Supreme Court: Go back and read your job description!
Obamatrons: Find a 12-step program.
284. Ron Scheurer | 12.09.08
Donofrio and Joe the plumber ought to join forces and plunge the world of all its evils. Two BS artists with mouths full of samples.
285. fido5150 | 12.09.08
If it wasn’t bad enough that the Republican party has made a laughing-stock of itself the past 8 years, they’re going to continue to do so for the next eight. To anybody that thinks Philip Berg is anything but a nutjob (even if he does claim to be a Dem), he’s the biggest supporter of the 9/11 conspiracy theories. If FOX News went off the air tomorrow, none of the Republicans would have any idea what to think, and the vacuum created in their brains would cause all their heads to implode. If this case had any merit whatsoever, it would’ve been discussed and ruled upon by the SCOTUS. They recognized it was just quackery filed by a sore loser immediately after the Democratic primary. The one nice thing is it’s a nice diversion for all the lunatic fringe of the Republican party, and keeps them focused on a non-issue while our new President gets things done.
286. bamby | 12.09.08
Here is a thread for you zombies that are a product of the propaganda institutions you call schools, that teach what to think instead of HOW.
McCain should be Vice president he received the second most votes.
That is the constitution.Try reading it.
287. Sable | 12.09.08
No money was spent on advertising. The case was “advertised” only on a free blog — he didn’t even spend the money to buy a domain.
The fact is, if you’re running for public office in the US, you lose a little bit of your right to privacy. That is part of the vetting process. John McCain’s birth certificate was published; why wasn’t Obama’s? I’m still wondering why McCain offered THOUSANDS of pages of health records, but Obama submitted a note from a doctor stating he is in good health.
This has NOTHING to do with racism, so let’s stop pulling the race card. Mr. Obama certainly abstained from pulling that card during the election — you far-leftists need to recognize and RESPECT that people voted against Obama for A LOT of reasons, none of them involving his race (for me, it’s that his voting record isn’t all that different from McCain’s - it’s just so much shorter that I didn’t have enough of an idea where he TRULY stands).
And for the record, I’m not wearing a tinfoil hat either, and I’m not a Republican. I’ve majoritively supported the Democratic Party in the few elections in which I’ve been eligible to vote. But either way, it looks like Mr. Obama will have an opportunity to prove that he is capable of bringing the change he’s been talking about for two years. I’m happy to sit back and watch. What I’m NOT happy about is that the Constitution is being disregarded — and yes, I have always cared about the US Constitution; I swore an oath to defend and uphold it. Not only that, but several people very dear to me have given their lives in its defense. As such, it’s hard for me to see it so blatantly disregarded.
288. lightnin | 12.09.08
Ok, here’s the thing. This “vault copy” Birth Certificate does NOT show where Obama was born, only that he WAS born, and that Hawaii accepts that to be true! It doesn’t show any hospital, home address, or even what state or territory where he was born in, doesn’t show any attending physician, midwife, witness, etc.
Yellow-dog “democrats” aside, this is not a case of “innocent until proven guilty”. To become President, a candidate needs to PROVE that he/she IS eligible under American law. That the Supreme Court chose not to review the case does not mean that he IS eligible, and there is no official document that has been presented to date which DOES that. Do you think that if Obama had a credible Birth Certificate that he would not be eager to provide it, end the controversy, and move on? He will never be a legitimate President while this issue is in limbo. If Biden will be President should Obama be proven ineligible, (an equally bad outcome), so be it, at least it would be a legitimate outcome (though Biden would never have been elected on his own).
289. TeaParty | 12.09.08
#274 Joan: You forget that in Obama’s case the vault copy of his birth certificate indeed DOES exist, but he refuses to share it with the American People! And at the time of his birth, Hawai’i was already a state, not a territory but part of the U.S.
The document exists. Show it to us!
For anyone to argue that Obama has no obligation to prove his place of birth is truly the Audacity of Dope.
290. John Adams | 12.09.08
What Obama has produced to prove he was born in Hawaii is not proof of that fact. The articles from Hawaii saying Obama was born in Hawaii do not say that and are being improperly cited by the press. Go read them for yourself, where in any of the articles does it say, “We hereby certify Obama was born in Hawaii.” They don’t. They simply say that they are holding the original birth certificate sealed in accordance with Hawaiian law.
Here is a website from the State of Hawaii that not only shows what a Certified Birth Certificate, or Certificate of Live Birth will look like, it also shows how to fill out the form. Read pages 7-11:
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%20Ka%20Aina%20Hoopulapula.pdf
Obama and his family have clearly stated on the record that Obama was born in a hospital in Hawaii. The Certification of Live Birth that Obama has produced is not evidence of where he was born as it does not include verifiable facts such as the name of the hospital, the names of the doctors, etc. That information is only available on the certified copies of the vault or long form birth certificate, which the State of Hawaii has announced they are holding, but Obama has refused to produce. This certified copy of Obama’s birth certificate could easily be produced by Obama filling out a form, shown above, signing it and sending in a check for $10.00. Why has he refused to produce the credible evidence to prove what he has said? It is the obstinate refusal of Obama to produce the birth certificate with the verifiable information on it that is driving this. Until that document is produced this issue will not go away and we have the prospect of a President elect that does not meet the “natural born” test of the Constitution.
Obama, the DNC and the press have all created this crisis of a President elect that may be ineligible to hold the office.
291. John Adams | 12.09.08
The point of the birth certificate is that Obama and his family are clearly on the record as stating that he was born in a hospital in Hawaii. The only way to prove that fact is for Obama to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate. That will include the name of the hospital, the name of the doctor. Anyone that says Obama has a right to privacy on this issue is simply wrong. Obama by placing his name on the ballot and saying he is an eligible “natural born citizen” requires that he produce legitimate evidence of that fact. Asking him to pay $10.00 and produce a certified copy of his birth certificate that includes the name of the hospital and verifiable facts is not unreasonable.
292. fido5150 | 12.09.08
#282, John Adams (and anybody else that thinks your argument holds water).
Hawaii was simply confirming that their records are EXACTLY in line with the electronic copy that Obama has shown as proof of his place of birth. It was also issued by a Republican (lest you claim that it’s a Democrat cover-up).
Also, NOBODY receives the vault copy of their birth certificate. You may have received a facsimile copy when you were born, however, if that copy is lost, you receive the copy that is near identical (depending on the State you were born in) to the one Obama has publicly shown.
It just shows that even in the face of proof, the Republicans are like the Black Knight in ‘Monty Python and the Holy Grail’:
“Tis but a scratch!”
“But your arm’s off!”
“Is not, ’tis merely a flesh wound!”
293. Yvonne | 12.09.08
What I see is this: There are people willing to throw mud and then complain that the person they hit is dirty. They create a fake argument and then criticize the person who won’t answer it.
BHO was born on U.S. soil of a U.S. mother. Period. He has provided a legally accepted birth certificate from the State of Hawaii. Period.
Mudslingers have declared it either a fake or insufficient. For the mudslingers, no document he ever produces will be enough. They simply don’t want him to be what he is - the next President of the United States.
294. Chris W. | 12.09.08
He’s been vetted, just not by the right wing wack jobs. To get any government position that might even come close having access to classified information he would have had to receive a Confidential information clearance. Certain committees would require a TS clearance due to the type of information. Since Obama has already started receiving the same briefings as Bush then common sense says that someone at some agency has completed a background investigation that includes his origin. Now maybe he was able to convince Hawaii to cover up something, maybe on the off chance he was able to buy the Supreme Court, but do you really believe that, really? What about the FBI, CIA, Secret Service? Really?
I’ve defended our constitution and love this country but even the President is entitled to some privacy. So while some sit and argue this point, the rest of us American Patriots are going to get behind our President and help solve this great nations problems…..care to give a hand?
295. Chris W. | 12.09.08
“Why has he refused to produce the credible evidence to prove what he has said? It is the obstinate refusal of Obama to produce the birth certificate with the verifiable information on it that is driving this.”
Substitute Bush for Obama and change birth certificate to WMD….
Now you know how we’ve been feeling for the last 8 years.
296. TeaParty | 12.09.08
#279 Bamby — you need to read the entire Constitution and Bill of Rights:
Article II Section 1 of the Constitution was superceded by Amendment XII.
(ie, the presidential “runner-up” does not become VP…)
#287 Chris W. — Most people have no idea who “vets” presidential candidates, and that includes you. Obama was vetted by members of the DNC (the same foxes resposnsible for guarding the henhouse).
McCain was challenged on the same issue and he produced the required documents to prove his status as a natual born citizen of the USA. Why is it that Democrats feel justified in refusing to do the same? Why do they believe themselves above the law?
297. Chris W. | 12.09.08
#289 TeaParty
But he was cleared by an agency, my TS clearance was conducted by the FBI and NCIS, so my guess his was done by the FBI and Secret Service.
Just because McCain coughed up his paperwork does not mean Obama has to, it’s HIS choice. I would like to see him put this to rest but he is entitled to some privacy. Why do all Republicans feel that our freedoms are only applicable until THEY say they are not.
What law are we believing to be above?
298. Chris W. | 12.09.08
I know the concept of privacy is hard for some to grasp because the last 8 years we’ve seen much of our privacy go the way of the dino thanks to the right wing wackos. Maybe thats the issue here, its time to take back our privacy, country, freedoms and liberties.
299. Angel | 12.09.08
If you want a good summary and explanation of the natural born citizen argument go here:
http://therightwing.net/index.php/2008/12/09/the-natural-born-citizen-case-explained/
There is too much bad info going around
300. AverageBob | 12.09.08
“And yes, this is the “Holy Grail” of Constitutional Law. All the framers used his law as reference to the Constitution. Make no mistake. SCOTUS uses it all the time. Shall I cite all the briefs and cases referring to his work??
Obama is ineligible. Natural Born Citizen = born on U.S. land from U.S. citizens. The father dictates citizenship. Obama’s father was a British citizen. Therefore, Obama Jr. was a British citizen. . .
But I wouldn’t expect the poor ignorant people of America to understand CIVICS at this level. I blame the public school system for this.”
You failed to cite any references but your reading of citizenship is antiquated. It is true that only “natural born” citizens can become President, but the framers failed to clearly define what “natural born” citizen means and in some cases what it meant to be a citizen.
In United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898),the Supreme Court defined that “a child born in the United States of parents of foreign descent . . . becomes a citizen of the United States at the time of birth.”
In that case, Wong Kim Ark was born in San Francisco to Chinese immigrants. In an effort to discriminate against the Chinese, many laws were passed to prevent them from being citizens despite the fact that they were born in the US. However, the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th Admendment grants anyone born in the US is a citizen at birth. Seeing how the framers did not define “natural born”, the Court concluded that born in the US meant “natural born”.
301. John Adams | 12.09.08
Sorry Fido, I do not think that you can speak for the State of Hawaii, they have been doing enough of that. What will speak to everyone on this issue is for Obama to produce a $10.00 certified copy of his birth certificate the one that includes the name of the hospital and doctors. You know facts that can be confirmed.
We are all just speculating as to what is contained on the vault copy. Why are all of you arguing about Obama not paying $10.00 and producing a legitimate copy of his birth certificate that is readily available? We know that under the laws at the time and prior to 1972 anyone could walk in and register a baby in Hawaii with little more than a Bazooka bubble gum wrapper. That is why even the State of Hawaii requires further proof of evidence of the birth, such as the certified copy of the birth certificate. The Certification of Live Birth is not good for much as indicated in this information from the State of Hawaii. So there is no argument to hold anything until Obama produces a legitimate copy of his birth certificate, and again, sign the form, send in the $10.00 and present the certified copy. Look at pages 7-11.
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%20Ka%20Aina%20Hoopulapula.pdf
303. Calvin | 12.09.08
I lived in Hawaii in the 50.60.and 70s,i open the first black barber shop in the islands on SmithSt,off of Hotel.i lived on Beretania St and the Durhams lived next door to me,i was there the day Barry was born,everyone who knew what happen next,Ann and Baracks Sr got divoiced when she found out that he had other wives in Kenya,but this where the problem,Barack Sr found out that Barry was not his,Barry real father was a black sailor on a submarine station at Pearl Harbor,and now lives in San francisco,and is a retired Greyhound Bus Driver,there were blood test taken to see who the real father was,and this is on record in Hawaii,
304. Dave3137 | 12.09.08
Natural born does not refer to location of birth. If it did no child born to our military or diplomats while serving overseas would qualify. It refers to “born to a U.S. citizen” as opposed to having no US citizenship rights at birth. The contrast is “naturalized” citizen — a person born as a citizen of another ocuntry, with no claim to US citizenship at birth, but who emigrates to this country and seeks citizenship or acquires it via parents who emigrate and acquire US citizenship. No one disputes that Obama’s mother was a US citzen. Unless we discount her citizenship, and look on to the father’s, there is no issue. Regardless of all other circumstances, he was born to a U.S. citizen. That is paramount. She was a U.S. citizen, gave birth to her son — and it happened to be, though did not necessarily have to be, on U.S. soil. End of story. Except for the extra heavy duty tinfoil hat folks.
305. DannyBoy | 12.10.08
In response to Steve # 67. Why didn’t we think of that one Steve. Everybody is stupid except you….. Are you serious? I am shocked to see all of the Obama people drinking Cool Aid. Constitution doesn’t matter, the law doesn’t matter and if Obama is unwilling to produce records (except fake ones)… oh well….Can I have another glass? It is obvious to me that Obama has something to hide. Hillary and Biden are smart for not relinquishing their senatorial seats. This thing is not over…..And the Supreme Court will have to hear the case(s) against Obama. This is not going away. It’s too important for this nation, and for all of us who are concerned about Obama’s lack of morals concerning his BC fiasco.
306. richCares | 12.11.08
Now that the Donofrio case is toast, the next one is Wrotnowski on Dec 12, which has been distributed for Dec 12 conference
See it at”
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a469.htm
It’s well known Supreme Court procedure that when a previously-denied application is resubmitted to another Justice — as was Donofrio and now Wrotnowsk, that Justice refers the application to the whole court. That’s because almost every single resubmitted application is brought by a crackpot, and is without merit. So rather than allow the applicant to keep re-submitting to every single Justice until at least six justices have separately denied it, the second Justice refers it to the entire Court, which usually spends about one second “considering” it, and then denies it as a whole, thus putting the application out of its misery once and for all.
This has been common practice for a long time, poor wingnuts keep on hoping and more importantly donating money! Curious, how many cases need to be dismissed before you wingnuts call it quits? All of us Kool Aid drinkers woul like to know (is the Supreme Court ion on the scam)
307. mayflower | 12.12.08
I agree with comment no. 8 that Obama should sue for slander,libel,etc..so that he would be legally forced to PROVE OTHERWISE..but I guess that his three law firms will now be better utilized to hide his corrupt deeds in the Chicago machine.
308. Obama Mama | 12.12.08
It’s Obama that’s wasting the court’s time. All Obama has to do to end this is to show his original “birth certificate”, not that useless “certification of live birth”. WHAT’S OBAMA HIDING? The truth will come out.
Obama, show us the freakin’ birth certificate!
309. cpabooks | 12.12.08
Does anyone know about the second case that is still under discussion? I didn’t think so. the majority of comments on this blog are so misguided that there is no place to start. Just keep tuning into TV until you get the news.
310. John Jones | 12.15.08
You guys are ignorant, seriously. The whole lot of you, almost. You’d rather sit around here and rant about Donofrio than give him the time of day and actually LEARN ABOUT WHAT HE’S CLAIMING. Typical Americans.
The Donofrio and Wrotnowski suits were not frivolous, and they were not even brought by a right-winger. They addressed a true issue of eligibility in our Constitution, and a heretofore untested clause in that document. There is a difference between “Citizen” and “Natural Born Citizen.” The Framers of the Constitution and their successors made this distinction, even if they did not succinctly define the terms in any legal documents. They figured the American people would have enough sense not to elect a British subject (even one whose British citizenship had expired) to the highest office in the land. Fancy that in a body that had just conducted a revolt against Great Britain. I know I’m probably talking over a lot of your heads, but try to keep up.
History matters, and our Constitution used to matter. Now that the honorable Court has refused to hear both cases on this basic first look issue of a straightforward, simple clause that has caused headaches to legal scholars for decades, I think the latter holds about as much esteem as the paper it was penned on. Pretty to look at, nice to claim legitimacy from, but who cares about actually following it? You guys can go back to calling Donofrio a kook, but it’s only yourselves that look pathetic.
311. Nuther Patriot | 01.05.09
For all those folks using the Constitution and what our founding fathers wanted 200+ years ago, please turn in your assault rifles and 9mm pistols.
Our founding fathers only had flintlocks and your cooperation would be appreciated.
Please also refrain from using your computer.
Likely it is running Microsoft or Apple software and their heads voted for Obama.
How can you use the operating system of such unAmerican koolaid drinkers?
You’ll have to go make your own now if you really want to sleep at night.
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Jimmy Orr has worked in politics for the majority of his professional career working for two U.S. Senators, two Governors and one President. Most recently, Orr served as White House Spokesman and Internet Director for President George W. Bush and Special Advisor to Governor Schwarzenegger for Internet Communications.
David Cook is Washington bureau chief of The Christian Science Monitor and host of the Monitor's newsmaker breakfasts. He was the Monitor's editor from 1994 to 2001. Cook is a graduate of Principia College, served in the U.S. Army, was a Bagehot Fellow at Columbia University, and is a member of the Gridiron Club, Washington's oldest journalistic organization.
1. James | 12.08.08
We do a disservice to really news making stories by reporting
the less than news worthy articles such as this.